Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the Ang Wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 Our hello colleagues and welcome to the People of You podcast. As you know, KJ has just done an amazing acknowledgement of country. I'm really grateful to her for doing so for every episode, but in a very meaningful way because every week of 52 in the year, we acknowledge and pay our deep respects to traditional owners and ancestors and elders for unseated land and territory and for the ideas and inspiration they give us. And thank you very much, kj. I'm really delighted today to be introducing Ru Rowena Young, known to all of us as ro, and not only a longtime employee of Victoria University, but also a former student and manager of our very much loved Thrive program. For those of you who can't see this podcast, she's wearing a Thrive t-shirt right now. So welcome to you robe for being with us. Thank
Speaker 3 00:02:07 You. Being looking forward to it. That's
Speaker 2 00:02:09 Great. Now we're gonna do some history, some contemporary stuff, and some future focused material today, but I cannot, you know, I can't avoid going back in time because look, you've had three decades of professional experience with this university, a lifelong commitment to sport and health and the fitness sector. And also, let's put it very bluntly to transformation for, for good. So it's just a delight to have you here. So let me just ask you, when you were first, what do you recall the first time that you saw this campus?
Speaker 3 00:02:41 I do. And I turned up as a first year student and naively thought I would know where to go. And I was looking on my timetable going, I have absolutely nowhere, no, no, no idea where I'm going. And yeah. But quickly worked it out and it was, it was a very different looking campus Yeah. To what it is now.
Speaker 2 00:03:04 So this was about 1996.
Speaker 3 00:03:07 91 was 91. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:03:08 The
Speaker 3 00:03:09 First degree as a student.
Speaker 2 00:03:09 Yeah. The first degree as a student. Yeah. Okay. So, so what did you, you had made up your mind, which you wanted to study, you knew it.
Speaker 3 00:03:15 Yeah, I, I had, and I think it was pretty much all the way through high school, I knew I was gonna do something sport related. Yeah. Very sporty family and, you know, everything sort of sport consumed everything. And so that was pretty early on. Let's,
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Let's go back onto that family background a bit. So what were the favorite sports in your household, and then what were yours? Let's hear about that.
Speaker 3 00:03:39 My dad had quite a history in athletics and so the first sport that my brother and I did was athletics. So little ass. Okay. And so we did that for many, many years. He was, our coach coached a group of athletes, not just us. And so that was my first foray into sport. He then taught us both how to play football and we used to go down the park and, you know, learn the skills and all that. And then when my brother was about seven, and so I was about nine, we went down to the under tens and we're all ready to go. And they said, welcome my brother. And said, sorry, you can't, you can't play. Purely because I was, I was a girl and that, so that was sort of the first instance where I went, well, this isn't fair, but, you know, didn't really question that. And in the end, the coach was, was quite good. He, he couldn't sort of break the rules, but he said, would you like to run the boundary? So I ran the boundary for the team. So I was kind of part of the team. But yeah, after two years of doing that, I sort of got sick of doing that and said, oh, I'm gonna go off and play netball. So Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:04:50 Yeah. Something that you could do all the time.
Speaker 3 00:04:52 Could do. Yeah. So I left and played, played netball after that.
Speaker 2 00:04:55 Isn't it frustrating when the no happens like that just on the basis of gender or something, you know, frustrating is the word, right?
Speaker 3 00:05:00 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:05:01 Yeah. You know, and you think of it, I was recalling it wasn't that long ago that they said no, women can't run marathons, for example. Yeah. You know, and look at it today, some of the very finest marathon runners in the world
Speaker 3 00:05:11 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:05:11 Always have been by the way. Yeah. Just couldn't run it up until a given date.
Speaker 3 00:05:14 That's right. It's, it's, yeah, it's, when you look back, like I had my nephew in the, when he was probably 15 in the, no, he was probably about 13. I was taking him with me to a training session that I was taking footy training session and, and he said, oh, did you and dad play in the same team when you were younger? And I said, no, mate. Girls weren't allowed to play footy then. And he's going, well, that's just stupid. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:41 That's a,
Speaker 3 00:05:41 And and so the, you know, it's really has come a long way that he just couldn't understand why that would would've been a thing.
Speaker 2 00:05:50 Yeah, that's right. The, the wisdom of youth got it in one. Yeah. It is stupid. Yeah. You know, it's nice to be able to, to remedy it. So when you came, so back in 91 and you decided to do, I guess it was called Bachelor of Exercise Science or or phys ed as a degree. Physical education. Yeah. And was it a big program? Did you meet lots of people at the time? Was it a massive sort of thing or small? What was it like?
Speaker 3 00:06:10 It was, it was the number one program at the time. Yeah. So it was the one that people wanted to go to and it just happened to be close. My parents' house is across the river. Right. So that was handy. But yeah, so it was quite big. There was quite a big intake and it was, yeah, it was the place to be at at the time to do phys ed.
Speaker 2 00:06:37 And so tell me a little bit more about it, because this is way before the block model and everything else. How did you do phys ed when it was like a lecture tutorial type of model? Wasn't a lot of it practical as well?
Speaker 3 00:06:48 It was, yeah. So you, you pretty much had an hour lecture. Two hour tutorial. Yeah. Some of it was classroom based, but a lot of it, a significant part of it was practical. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Yeah. Did you do any of those outdoor education modules as well? Any of that?
Speaker 3 00:07:05 We did, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All of it. Yeah. We did all that. Went bush walking in the rain and overnight putting up tents, you know, when it's pouring rain all we did all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:16 It was really quite famous for all weather, all types, all places. Absolutely. Yeah. And have you stayed in touch with many of the people who were in that class?
Speaker 3 00:07:24 There's a couple that we still Yeah. Still talk to, but it, you know, people have gone all over the world essentially now, but, well, that's right. Yeah. It's, you know, you always, there's always a couple that you, you still keep in touch with and, and have that connection with.
Speaker 2 00:07:40 I'm going to get back to that because we're gonna talk about the hundred 10th birthday Mm. Of vu and its predecessor institutions, you know, FIT and all the rest of it. Next year, in fact in 2026. So, but for now, it's your story. So let me just ask you then, if you're imagining the three decades you've been here, student and then staff. Okay. And if you take it decade by decade, first it was that kind of phys ed decade, and then you came back, how many years later did you come as a staff member?
Speaker 3 00:08:09 Two. Two years after.
Speaker 2 00:08:10 Just two years after, yeah. After graduating. Not long. Yeah. Not long.
Speaker 3 00:08:12 Not
Speaker 2 00:08:12 Long. No. And what did you do first as your very first paid job at
Speaker 3 00:08:16 Vu? At Vu, I ran the netball and basketball competitions here Oh, cool. In the court. So there used to be competitions each night. Yeah. And so I ran that, looked after the umpires and the players and yeah, it was, it was a good job for a young person at the time. But yeah, I, it's one of those jobs that you, you do for, as a transition. I think.
Speaker 2 00:08:39 It's not forever. It's not a forever
Speaker 3 00:08:41 Job's not a forever job. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 I love that term. Forever job as if anything is right. Yeah. But, but look, that's important. And were you, you were sort of managing netball, but were you playing any football or just netball at that time?
Speaker 3 00:08:53 At that time I was playing netball. Yeah. Yeah. And so playing state league netball and then transitioned into footy pretty close. No, actually I was, no, that's not right. I was playing football the year before I started. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:09:07 Oh, interesting. So you're pretty early, early adopter, hey. Yeah, yeah. Despite that knock back when you were, you know, nine or whatever, this all changed. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:09:16 You know, well I, 'cause I was doing a phys ed degree, I, as a lot of you do, I was working in a gym. Yep. And I looked outside one day when I was, you know, out onto the field, there was a field next door and saw all these women doing a training session. And so after my shift, I went out and said, Hey, what are you doing? Mm. And and they said, look, c come along to the next training session. And that's basically how it started. So, and what team
Speaker 2 00:09:43 Was that?
Speaker 3 00:09:43 That was the, the Spurs. So, which who have moved around a little bit, but that was in Sunshine. In
Speaker 2 00:09:52 Sunshine. Isn't that great? So you're the kind of person who sees something and you go and ask.
Speaker 3 00:09:56 Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:09:57 You don't just stand on the sidelines. The boundary riding thing doesn't last.
Speaker 3 00:10:00 No, not at all. That's not you. Not at
Speaker 2 00:10:01 All. You, you get right into the middle.
Speaker 3 00:10:03 Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's, you've gotta be curious and you've gotta put yourself out there a little bit and try, try things.
Speaker 2 00:10:09 I think that's brilliant. Yeah. You know, I really get the feeling that you're a proposer. Yeah. A great, you know, got ideas. I'm gonna po just ball them up. So lemme just, because I'm, you know, jump forward for a second, I'm gonna talk about Thrive. Thrive is a program like that. I think, I think that was your idea from a little while ago, wasn't it? Like when did that first get thought of as a thing?
Speaker 3 00:10:28 So it's, it's had a lot, a relatively long history. So back and I had a look when it was back in 2012, we had each person used to, in our department, present something for the, the year ahead. Yeah. And so I put up a, an idea for a staff program and it was, it was around giving people extra time if they wanted to do something for their wellness. Oh, okay. Yeah. It was mostly sport related. And then from there, Linde Burke and I developed a lot of the pro, a lot of the sort of staff related Yeah. Program and then some others in the department. So Scott and Wade and Jess and Divot did a lot of the student component. James did a lot of the name and the, and the various aspects of it. And I guess now I sort of have the privilege of drawing all that together, putting some strategy behind it, you know, other people's ideas from across the university. And it's really, you know, I think it is a privilege to then take all that work from more than 10 years to, and then deliver it as a program. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 So decade to decade. Now, let me just try and put this in perspective. It sounds like, you know, when people say I've had something in my top drawer for a while. Yes. Was it kind of like that, was it sort of sitting there and then just waiting for the time to propose it formally? Or had you, like, what did you call it the first time you thought of it? What was the, did it have a name?
Speaker 3 00:11:54 I'm a bit embarrassed about the first name. Yeah. So the first name was 15 Minutes Free Fitness, which was giving you extra time if you're gonna do something. Okay. Then it went to Active U.
Speaker 2 00:12:06 Active U, the
Speaker 3 00:12:07 V and the U.
Speaker 2 00:12:08 Ah, yeah, yeah. Big
Speaker 3 00:12:09 And yeah. And then Thrive. Oh, okay. Came along after that.
Speaker 2 00:12:12 So Thrive was the third version thereof. Yeah. Yeah. Because like, it sort of is one of those things. We used to have a thing called participation in Canada when I was a kid. Yeah. It's a terrible name, right? Yeah. But there used to be ads, it was a bit like the do the right thing, you know, that era when they had all those public service ads and there was equivalent public campaigns here. Yeah. Anyway, part participation was the name for the public health program and they had a thing called the Health Hustle in schools. And you had to, you know, in school you had to run around your desk and do all these things in, you know, primary school. Yeah. But this is a university program. That's the difference. You know, they, they tended to have those public health things if, you know, for kids, younger kids. But I had not seen one of this sort for younger adults or even any age adults in a university before. Had you?
Speaker 3 00:13:00 No, not, not like this. And I think one of the premises is that as you, as you grow older, I think people tend to think you've gotta be a bit more serious and you've got to, you know, do certain things in a certain way. And, and I, there's no reason why you can't do fun things. And if you enjoy playing with Lego or anything like that, then why wouldn't you continue to do it as an adult if it brings you joy. And so that's sort of where a lot of the thrive comes from. And people at times are a bit hesitant to try. And when they try, they're like, this is, this is great. Yeah. And so it's just trying to Yeah. I think bring more fun to, to every day. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:46 The enjoyment of every day. Yeah. And let's just pull it back for those of you who don't know what Thrive is. So it's really a massive student and staff facing sport, wellness and enjoyment program, which enhances through activity are belonging to vu. Doesn't always happen on campus, but a lot of it does. And it doesn't all happen during the day, but a lot of it does. And it just has been incredible. Tell us the stats, like when it began and how many people started just for those who don't know the story.
Speaker 3 00:14:13 Yeah. So when we were moved into Wade's portfolio,
Speaker 2 00:14:16 So this is Wade Noonan? Wade
Speaker 3 00:14:17 Noonan, yeah. Yeah. He, he said, have has and have you got anything to pitch? And so we said, yes, we, we have something. And, and he liked the idea of it and said, why don't we try it for a month and see if it resonates for a month, for one month. So it
Speaker 2 00:14:31 Was back to your like, you know, 15 minutes of fitness or something for
Speaker 3 00:14:35 A month. Yes. Sort of. And so we, so we had October, 2023. Yeah. We had, you know, a small amount of money and, and a lot of desire to really push it out. And this was, we felt like we'd pitched it before and every time people had liked it, but hadn't been able to get it, get it over the line for various reasons. Yeah. So we said, right, let's go full on, we're gonna do this. And he said, see if you can get 300 staff involved and 709 staff seven participated.
Speaker 2 00:15:08 Oh nine in that first three months. In
Speaker 3 00:15:09 That, in that first month. Month, that first month. Wow. So from there, it, it obviously resonated with staff and then it's just sort of rolled on from there to then, you know, relaunch the, the staff program the next year and then implement the student program from there.
Speaker 2 00:15:27 So tell me, what are the latest numbers that, you know, for students and staff involvement?
Speaker 3 00:15:31 Yeah, so we've start, like we started the, we put the counter down to zero again this year, right? Yes. So, but I did have a look at, I put the two together and eliminated the duplicates just to see, and there's, for students, there's about 5,300 individual different students that have participated in LA sort of in 12 months. Yeah. And then for staff, you're pushing up to about 1900 ish staff.
Speaker 2 00:16:03 1,900. Like that's different stuffs well over half. Well 60, 70 that, I think this is the largest participation program of its type I've seen anywhere in Australia. Is that true?
Speaker 3 00:16:13 I don't know. Maybe should,
Speaker 2 00:16:15 We're gonna research this and find out. I tell you, it sounds like it may well be Yeah. Because I don't think it's been other people do things for a period, like you said, a month, a season, a festival, I think this is kind of year round now. Yeah. Seasonal in out cold weather, hot weather, whatever. Where do all the ideas come from?
Speaker 3 00:16:36 Some of the ideas come from the VU Sport staff and, and they put them up. But a lot of the ideas come from just staff and students of the university. So we have a, we're gonna do now list a we're gonna do it soon list because we think we can do that fairly quickly. Yeah. And then we've gotta, we've gotta do more research Yeah. List. Yeah. And, and both of them are, are really long. Ah, and, and so there's lots of, lots of things that people would, would love to do. Yeah. And you know, we try and implement as many as we possibly can. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:09 The, the to do research list sounds great. 'cause that's like what a university does. You make your day job a research project. Yeah. And that's what you're doing. I think it's fantastic. It evokes the reason why VU exists is what you're doing. It's super Mm, really great. So what's next for it? Like, I mean, since you've already grown the numbers and the size and everything, have you got any radical ideas in mind? Like are, I mean, should we take over the graduation ceremonies with a Thrive event or something?
Speaker 3 00:17:34 Well, I mean, I think the general concept of adding joy and, and fun is, is a good one that can go into most things. I think the natural progression is, is to partners and, and alumni. It's, but that's a big piece of work to, to do that. But really this year we're trying to bed down more students getting, doing more things. I think the staff are pretty embedded and, and you know, we'll just keep, keep doing the offerings and, and encourage them to participate. But yeah, the, the students, 'cause you're getting new students all the time, it's about that education piece, getting them involved and getting them doing, doing more.
Speaker 2 00:18:17 Well look, you, we know about awards. One VU award was fantastic thing to have achieved, yet it's not the only award you've received in your life. You've had lots of awards. You're A-V-F-L-W Life member, you've had a medal named in your Honor, you know, this is the latest in a sort of sequence of things you've received, but it's actually very collective. What's wonderful about this one is it represents 30 years for you next year, 110 for vu. So just imagine if we had 110 Thrive events. I'm just putting it out there.
Speaker 3 00:18:49 The boys have already divot and Brad sent me an email yesterday saying we wanna do 110 different things.
Speaker 2 00:18:56 Oh my gosh. Yeah. So did I know that?
Speaker 3 00:18:58 No, you didn't know that. So, but they, I've, I've literally got the email sitting there. Yeah. That they, that's super, that was it. That was their idea. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:05 Good on though. See this is what happens. It's like user generated content becomes even much better. Yeah. So people take the lead and you're sharing the, the responsibility. I love it very much. That's fantastic. So colleagues, for those of you who aren't here and aren't on the staff or are not students or are alumni, please come back if you are an alum and if you're not yet a student, please join us because I'll tell you what, this is the only place you can do it that I know of. Now I'm gonna go back to you though, 'cause it's a fantastic career you've had, it's always been reinvented. You've told me a bit about the early days in your early sports. But tell us a little bit more about, you know, being like you did an NBA and then you sort of were a player and then an executive in EL elements of sport too. So just tell me a bit about that. 'cause the NBA was around what, 2011? 2012 Mm. I think also with us, I think it was. Yeah. But, but how much did that help you and how much have you used?
Speaker 3 00:19:54 I think it's, it's helped a lot. I mean, I think it was, it was almost a, a personal challenge to go back and I was very nervous about going back to study and, but it was, yeah, it was a personal challenge. I mean, you're around PE education and, and educated people when you're working at a university and the, the roles that I was doing, you know, involved a lot of money and, and you know, commercial opportunities. And so I felt like it was a good opportunity to go and just get that, that sort of underpinning knowledge as yeah. To, I had the, I guess the experience but wanted that, that underpinning knowledge. And I think it's, it's been even with Thrive. So when we made that, I made a quite a detailed financial analysis about reducing the, the membership rates. So, so we took 70% off the price for staff and students. But that was a very calculated, you know, calculated thing that, and that's resulted in just for students a 526% increase in students, you know, using the gym. So yeah, financially it's been a great decision. Yeah. Really doing
Speaker 2 00:21:13 The numbers matters, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. You know, and really thinking about the sensitivity when people are doing it tough financially. Yeah. Great. Great move. And so let me just ask you about this because you actually have studied a bit overseas as well. Yes. In France, I think it was part of your MBA. Yeah. Tell us about that experience and what did you learn something different when you went there that you've used?
Speaker 3 00:21:32 I think, I mean France was a, a great experience. It was, it gave you an opportunity to see a place not being a tourist. So you sort of, you're there day in, day out and I think working with people from all different cultures and there was language barriers and all that sort of stuff Yeah. Really helped you with your communication skills because you couldn't always just rely on language. And so that I think helps day to day because, you know, we've got a very diverse, as you know, you know, student and staff cohort. Yeah. And so it gives you little insights, you know, into different ways you can approach people and, and, and get people on board. The subject, the way the subjects were delivered was quite innovative. So the, how
Speaker 2 00:22:27 Did they do it?
Speaker 3 00:22:28 So the business strategy subject, we were put in a group of four and I was in a group with two French students and one from Lebanon. Mm. And and they all did speak English, but when it got heated and that they, they all spoke French and I didn't. And so it was, that was challenging. Yeah. But there was a, so the lecturer had a, he, a program he'd developed and it was basically each group of four got a portion of the world's share of camera sales. And you had a, oh, you had a, a high-end camera and an entry-level camera and you had to make all the decisions about the features of the camera, what the price is, you know, if you're gonna, what your marketing, everything to do with the camera. And then you would every eight hours you had to submit. So this was over a four day period.
Speaker 3 00:23:17 Wow. So it was mimic picking a three year, you know, three years in the industry, but you had to do it every eight hours Wow. For four days. And so it was quite intense. Yeah. And so you had to keep me, you know, meeting up with these three other people and making these decisions and, and agreeing on a strategy. And, and then you'd submit and then you would come back and you either lost your share, you know, part of a share in America or you gained a part of share in in Europe and Yeah. And you're making those decisions and it was a really high pressure way, but I think it was really good 'cause it, it made you make decisions quickly. Yep. And it made you communicate, communicate clearly. Yes. And that sort of thing. So I really enjoyed that subject and Sounds like it. And I felt feel like it, it gave you Yeah. It sort of, it's like don't sit on a decision just just,
Speaker 2 00:24:07 You know Yeah. Make the right thing. Make
Speaker 3 00:24:09 The right, yeah. Yeah. Investigate it and then just go with what you know, what you think's. Right. Well
Speaker 2 00:24:14 You know, this sounds a lot like when I talk to the people at Melbourne Airport about the training for air traffic controllers. Yeah. You know, like you have this calmness but this rapidity and it's clear decision making and you've gotta get it right. Yeah. You know, and it's like trading on an international trading desk or something like that. Same thing. You can, a lot happens in a very short period of time. Yeah. But I think that's fantastic. Like you've had a sort of proto block model experience as well. So sport I think personally is one of the progenitors of our VU block model. 'cause when you think about intensive training and the ability to do things in four weeks, you talked about it in the, in initially a month. You can do a lot in a month. That's what we do in our subjects. Mm. And thrive started with a month as well. Think about it, it's very much a vu way of doing things. Yeah. And you're a vu person and a leading exemplar of what we do. I wanna say thank you for that. It's so amazing. Really great.
Speaker 3 00:25:04 Thank
Speaker 2 00:25:05 You. I bet you didn't think of it that way.
Speaker 3 00:25:06 No, no, not at all.
Speaker 2 00:25:08 You know, when you look back at it, it's true. Yeah. So here we are and I'm just gonna make you, you know, blush for a second. But you've had a number of awards, you know, multiple accolades, three vice chancellor's awards, two in innovation and excellence category, the paramedic support program in 2014, the Thrive Program in 2023. And of course the individual VCs won award this year in 20 last year, but awarded this year in 2025. And, and you've just returned from the National Uni Sport conference when you were presenting on the Thrive program. Wow. You've been busy.
Speaker 3 00:25:42 I have, yeah. It's been, I mean, I think everyone's busy at at this time, but yeah, it has been quite a busy week so far.
Speaker 2 00:25:49 How did it go?
Speaker 3 00:25:50 It went really well. It was really well received. A lot of people asked a lot of questions and, and in my view made a lot of excuses as to why they couldn't do something like that. Oh really? And yeah, it was, it was interesting. So some people are like, oh, you know, it's really great. We're gonna, you know, rethink the way we do it. And others are like, oh, we couldn't do that because of this restriction or that restriction and that, you know, if you want something to happen, you gotta keep, you know, look for solutions I guess.
Speaker 2 00:26:20 I think that's right. And there's a really good insight for people in sport and you know, my mom was a very elite sport sports person is when she had a favorite phrase that energy begets energy. Mm. You know, that one or Yeah. Produces energy. So it's the doing produces more doing Yeah. Than not doing produces the reverse. Yeah. Like just frozen action. And so I think you're the kind of person, whether it's in coaching or administration or leadership, you know, you can do so respectfully and inclusively, but you do it, it's the action that matters. So when I get back to that participation, maybe it wasn't such a bad slogan after all participation and action coming together. Yeah. You know,
Speaker 3 00:26:59 Well we, we had life be in it. Yeah. Was Australia. That's right. So that was a, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:04 I don't know which is better or worse, but Yeah. You know, neither of them have lasted. But if you were gonna design a program for fitness for kids in the, you know, nationally today, what would you call it?
Speaker 3 00:27:15 Oh, I, I don't know what I'd call it, but it would definitely have to be, you know, I think fun and having joy and, and, and really it's about doing stuff rather than what you've necessarily achieved. I think it's, yeah. The continuation of, of improving skills, but not comparing yourself to someone else. Yeah, exactly. So I dunno what I'd call it, but
Speaker 2 00:27:41 I will be our next program. Yeah. Yeah. And, and our, and our next podcast. Hey look, can I just say thank you for going through this? It's been a fabulous learning experience for me, but also a celebratory experience and joyful and fun. And you're a fabulous colleague. I'm so glad and I'm so pleased to name you as one of my colleagues. Thank you, RO.
Speaker 3 00:27:58 Oh, thank you very much.
