Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the Ang Wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 Hello, colleagues. It's Adam Shoemaker here, and I'm delighted to be the Vice Chancellor of Victoria University. I say this every day when I get up and think of work coming ahead. I'm also the, the host of this podcast, people of Vu, and we delve into the fascinating stories, the achievements, and really the exceptional individuals who make up the vibrant community that we call Victoria University. Now, before we start, I do want to acknowledge kj Karen Jackson for the acknowledgement of country that we just heard. Can I add also my, my respects, my deep acknowledgement and my absolute recognition for the ancestors, the elders, their families, their forebears, and the future members of their families who will lead us forward as we gain First Nations knowledge. It's so important to all of us everywhere we operate. Thank you, kj. Now, today's episode, I'm delighted to introduce Dr.
Speaker 2 00:02:11 Ing Chao course Chair in Building Design and a senior lecturer in built environment here at vu. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's great to have you with us. It's my pleasure. It's it's gonna be great. And of course, the thing is we're surrounded by infrastructure everywhere campuses, our infrastructure and where we are performing or doing this podcast is only a few hundred meters away from the biggest infrastructure built in hospitals in the state of Victoria. So it's pretty difficult not to talk about built environments. That's true. It's a, it's a wonderful topic. Tell me, I was just interested to know when you were growing up, and I presume it was in Hong Kong. Yes. When did you become most interested in built environment? Like when was it a thing that grabbed you as a concept?
Speaker 3 00:02:59 I was born in Hong Kong, as you mentioned, and when I was very young, like a kid, my grandfather gave me a book talking about the work of an architect. So that storybook inspired me to become an architect. Ah, fantastic. So it was my dream to become an architect. And so after completion of my secondary school study, I applied for the first Over is studying architecture at the University of Hong Kong, and I got the over.
Speaker 2 00:03:27 Fantastic. Now tell me, do you remember much about this book? It sounds like it was quite important.
Speaker 3 00:03:32 It's a, it's a book, very colorful, a lot of pictures for kids to read. So there's like different, different books in a series. So a book about architects and a book about doctor book about a teacher, something like that. Yeah. So, but, but just that particular book about architects just inspire me like really attached to that book.
Speaker 2 00:03:54 It's amazing, isn't it? So parental influence can be quite inspiring at times, you know? That's true. And of course sometimes it's one event, sometimes it's, it's many events. Now, you yourself, it sounds to me like you're a very curious person who enjoyed reading. Did you always, were you always a big reader as a child?
Speaker 3 00:04:13 Yes, you are. Right. I really spent a lot of time for reading. I, I enjoy it. And, and that's why even after studying architecture, I, I studied part-time. I, I completed degree in north three years bachelor of laws through the external program of the Gu of London. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is full distance learning. And I studied part-time, master of arts in philosophy at the Chinese Univers of Hong Kong. It's
Speaker 2 00:04:42 Incredible, man.
Speaker 3 00:04:43 Before moving to Melbourne to start my
Speaker 2 00:04:44 PhD. It's so great. Well, let's just go back a bit now. Chinese University of Hong Kong. It's a great institution. I visited there a number of times and I, I had a colleague who was on the staff and also in the law school too. And some of the work that was being done in this intersection of international law and philosophy was really profound. Like it was very, very impressive. Did you do sort of legal theory given the fact you were interested in law? Did you join together law and philosophy at all in your studies?
Speaker 3 00:05:11 Actually, it's, it's separate law is three years under the University of London. Yes. And then after I complete this bachelor of law degree, i, I start the master of arts in philosophy at the Chinese rest of Hong Kong. But the, the, the pursuit of legal reasoning, legal principles behind and the pH philoso philosophical investigations that they are just fascinating.
Speaker 2 00:05:35 Oh yeah. Yeah. And there's a, there's a really good journal. I'm privileged to be on the editorial board of this journal called Paulos, which is about, you know, jurisprudence, you know, legal theory. Yeah. So we must get you to write an article, you know, it's a great thing. Little did we, no, we're talking about built environment and now we're talking about the intellectual environment as well. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:05:53 This is
Speaker 2 00:05:54 How things, this is how things work. But, but back to CUHK. Now I understand that you were, you know, architectural practice as well at some point. So, so tell me how did it work? You did your studies before you came to Melbourne. Were you working in architecture in Hong Kong?
Speaker 3 00:06:09 Yes. After graduation completion of my architectural education at the University of Hong Kong, I joined housing department as a, as architectural graduate. And later on as an architect for four years. And I move on to civil engineering and development department in Hong Kong. Yeah. For another seven to eight years. So I work in a multidisciplinary working environment with coast collaboration with different disciplines like civil engineers, structural engineers, building services engineers, landscape architects. So it's quite interesting. And the working environment provide me a lot of opportunity to be involved in like small public works, public housing to large infrastructure projects.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 So can you just give us an idea? 'cause many people would've visited Hong Kong. Is there anything that, any sort of landmark projects of which we would be aware?
Speaker 3 00:07:01 One large project I mentioned is a large infrastructure project actually is the penny space development, infrastructure development in Hong Kong, which is the Hong Kong Disneyland film park. Oh, seriously? Seriously? Oh yeah, yeah. The government. Hong Kong government provide the infrastructure. Yeah. And American, the company Disneyland, decide film park inside. But we need to provide the infrastructure support for them first.
Speaker 2 00:07:26 Fascinating. Yeah, I had no idea. That's amazing. Well, you know what, who to come to when we wanted to transform one of our campuses in a new direction. Right. So that's amazing, but sincerely, so you did this for around a decade, was that right? Approximately?
Speaker 3 00:07:39 Yeah, it's the port. Just start in 2001 and I, I worked for the civil engineer development department until 2008. So it takes for a few years some a reclamation because it was a, it is a bay and then we, we came to land first. Yes. And then building infrastructure, the world, the, the pipe work and then the pier and recreation center and the connection, the railway.
Speaker 2 00:08:06 It's amazing how much went on, like all that was just an enormous project, you know? Yes. And and tell me, when you were finished, what gave you the idea to come to this country, to this nation? Well, you know, 'cause you were doing so well in Hong Kong. Any particular reason why you chose Australia at that point? Because
Speaker 3 00:08:21 After studying four degrees in Hong Kong, they all in Hong Kong. Even the, the law degree, university of London. But it's a, it's a distant learning. So basically I stayed in Hong Kong, so after that and also working more than 10 years professional practice in Hong Kong. So I quite at that time quite eager to study a abroad. I really enjoyed like travel and cultural experience. So I, I applied for a PhD research at Melbourne Uni. Yeah. And I got the scholarship, so Okay then that's
Speaker 2 00:08:51 Good. Wonderful. Yeah. Oh, congratulations. In retrospect, that's a great thing. So did you have any hesitation? Did you go apply anywhere else or just there,
Speaker 3 00:09:00 Actually you, when you mentioned about hesitation, I did because at that time I worked at, in a contract for two years. So I got the over, but because I have still have one year more contract, so I told member uni it is possible for me to apply defer. They say low, but you need to apply again, but there's no guarantee the scholarship will be still there. Right. But the second year I applied again and I still got the scholarship, so, okay. This is the time for me to come.
Speaker 2 00:09:26 Well, I'm glad you proved them. Yeah. Is not incorrect, but the, the confidence you had was, was that great. That's excellent. So then Andrew, what was your topic of your PhD?
Speaker 3 00:09:35 Good question. At that time I, I collaborated with a professor at, at rest of Hong, at, at Melbourne Uni and we focusing on contemporary Chinese architecture. Ah, yeah, yeah, because I was born in Hong Kong, so yeah, this, and I speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese. So for me it seems a good option for me to obtain some firsthand information in England, China. So yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:07 Fantastic. Look, I mean, you've done so many things honestly. It's, it's just a, a pleasure to speak with you. So if we're looking at sort of turning points so often in a time when you're finishing a PhD and you're thinking what's next? So was the, what's next something that was involving Victoria University at that point? Like when did, when did you come here? Oh,
Speaker 3 00:10:28 Okay, good question. Actually, when I start the PhD research at Melbourne Uni, I already start teaching as a tutor and senior tutor. So I'm really friends Melbourne Uni for, was such opportunity for me so that I can manage to do my PhD research and teaching as a tutor in senior tutor involved in undergraduate architectural design studios and postgraduate architectural design studios. So I worked to at Melbourne Uni until two, 2019 before I joined Victoria University in 2019. Wow. And I take the position as a CTrain, really decide in 2022 and then has been promoted to senior lecturer in Peter Wman early this year. And
Speaker 2 00:11:10 Well, look, I, I can, I'm not surprised, you know, not at all surprised. So the things that you've done and the energy and approach that you have is so highly professional. So let's talk about profession. How do you think your approach as a professional architect has influenced the way that you do your teaching? And does it really influence it in a new way?
Speaker 3 00:11:29 Yeah, as a professional architect, I really emphasize on the intrinsic linkage between teaching and the industry. Yeah. So that's why in my design studios I involve in white industry partners, practitioners, and even sometimes local councils and government offices to deliver the guests talk to students. And I arranged a few trips for students to gain firsthand experience outside the campus. Right. So they visit the house, the seven star house decided by famous building designers and I also, or organized, like the recently is to arrange a visit to retirement apartments. So for students to have better understanding about decipher aging. Mm. So sometimes as as, as a lot more adults we, we quite difficult imagine the leads of the older people. So until they visit the place living environments and they touch the space and feel their spatial quality. So they get them more firsthand experience about that.
Speaker 2 00:12:31 I think that's, right now there is a, an expression both in English and, and in French, which is, you know, seeing is believing or what is that in Mandarin, you know, like this, that image seeing is believing, you know, having the experience.
Speaker 3 00:12:43 Yes. It's very important. It's called Mandarin is called. Yeah. I think that's just the most important thing for education. That means our knowledge is not only from the textbook, but is the firsthand experience that is the most important. Got it. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:12:59 And I think that's experiential. The thing that's fascinating about the block model is it is more experiential, it's more intercultural or group based and more experiential. So I think that you, your background fits perfectly. The model that we have, you know, it like, it's kind of a perfect match as they say, you know, so when you bring it back together and you think about, you know, the teaching excellence, which of course is important. Have you learned a lot from your students?
Speaker 3 00:13:24 Definitely. A lot of students here, they are mature students. They have a lot of experience. So one of my students over 50, I was quite surprised. Yeah. They have a lot of experience. Some of them they work part-time. So it's very different because I had experience teaching at Melbourne Uni and before moving to vu. So at Melbourne Uni, a lot of students, they are international students, they, from a good family background support them. They don't need to care about working part-time. They're just full-time focusing on study. Of course they're hard working. But here, there's the students they manage to work life balance, they work part-time outside to gain, to earn a living and then support their study. So, so it's very different student cohort. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:12 Yeah. And but the level of industry sounds like it's high in both. In other words, industriousness, both cohorts work hard.
Speaker 3 00:14:19 Yes. Like for example, the, the students who study construction management here, so a lot of them, they actually is already working, they're working in the industry. Mm. So they have a lot of hands-on experience. So, which is really important for them. And they, they can bring a lot of knowledge to the classrooms to share with the co the cast base.
Speaker 2 00:14:39 I think it's ideal. Now we've of course been delighted that you've come here as I did from overseas and many people do. But you, I understand you also do take some of your students overseas during their course. So let's tell, talk about that and understand some of it is to Japan. How does that work and why Japan?
Speaker 3 00:14:56 Okay. Fi first of all, thank you very much for the new Colombo plan. Yes. The government, they are very generous to provide this funding, which enough for me to take students two times to Japan was end of last year. So I collaborate with Osaka public university and students traveled to Osaka and, and the students cohort is a, is a, is a mix of both bachelor of building design students and bachelor of architectural engineering students. So to me it's a perfect match because engineering students, they looked at the things, it's a little bit different from a designer. Yeah. But they learn from each other. So it's a very good combination. And in July this year I took students to Tokyo in collaboration with Tokyo Den University. And for one week and another week we, we went to Hokkaido, the ton part of Japan and collaboration with Hokkaido University. So Hokkaido University is very famous and good reputations a long history. So it's good for students to experience both. And in summer in July is a good time to visit Al-Qaeda. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:07 'cause I understand the winters there can be quite severe,
Speaker 3 00:16:09 Extremely cold. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:16:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone told me in all the novels that I've read and also the experiences, it's, it's one of the places they talk about. Yeah. And so when the students come back, how do you sort of talk about this, it's an immersive opportunity, but how do you, if you like, assess their work, what do they show you from that?
Speaker 3 00:16:28 And this study tour is Inc in, is integrated with the units called residential sustainable design. So actually the, the theme of this study tour is called Inclusive and Sustainable Residential Design in Japan. So students had a lot of opportunity to visit housing manufacturers in Japan. So definitely the standard of the quality of work, the craftmanship, the level of paying attention to all details according to Japanese standard, the very high why. So it's, yeah, it's a lot of wow effect. But we visited them and then they have a well established factory, p fabrications, meticulous details, and they go for a lot of testing, materials, testing. So I think to me, even for the students, it is a fantastic opportunity for them open their eyes and wind their horizons and to bring back to Australia, we're always looking at how to improve the, the housing industry in, in, in Australia. So.
Speaker 2 00:17:32 So it sounds like it's techniques as well as insights Yeah. Research as well as application. Yes. All of those things. That's what I'm
Speaker 3 00:17:39 Hearing. Yeah. And and also a very important component is engagement with the local students in Japan. So the cultural experience is also very important. Most of the students, they never travel overseas. It's the first time and the Japanese culture is so unique that you love it.
Speaker 2 00:17:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'd be so grateful to show that people like to show what they have done and their heritage has produced as well. It's very strong sense. And also
Speaker 3 00:18:03 I arranged like a tea ceremony, traditional t ceremony for people to, for students to experience this traditional Japanese culture. I think that's brilliant. Which just a little bit on top of the technical stuff that the sustainability side in Japan. Well
Speaker 2 00:18:19 I'm very grateful you did that. 'cause to be honest to me the culture and the technical cannot sit idly without each other. You know, they really interpolate in very interesting ways, you know, so, and, and just the way we're talking about it is the same sort of thing. So when you look at it, another part of this is where does one give? I mean we have a bit of a mortal in the university. We, we care and we act. Now I think you do both. You don't just teach and you don't just research. But I understand you're involved in humanitarian work as well. Do you wanna talk about that a bit?
Speaker 3 00:18:49 Okay. This year I collaborate with the Serbian Community Center in Cannes in Queensland. So, which is a local community center. So they are ex planning to expand the community center. So that becomes a decide project for the building, decide students to participate. We, although they, during the decide process, they couldn't go to King's, but we arranged like zoom meetings and invite them to deliver guest talk to student because the serving community center not only cater for serving people, but also we serve for the local aboriginal community. There's quite a lot of Aboriginal people living in Canes. Yeah. In Queensland. Yeah. So that's why it's quite important this community hub becomes a, there's a lead to expand 'cause current situation too small. Right. So, and this not-for-profit organization serving community center, they're very generous. So out after the design studios, the 10 students group, they pick three of them and they are very generous to provides and accommodations for our students to fly to King and to stay there for three days, engage with them, look at the real situation, the current situation, and propose some new ideas. And they also invite the local architects to join the session and interact with our students.
Speaker 2 00:20:09 What an outstanding opportunity. How did you find this?
Speaker 3 00:20:13 So thank you very much for our head of theater Wman. So obviously she is from Serbia, so she has a good relationship with the Serbian Community center. Yeah. So through his, through her collection. So now isn't that
Speaker 2 00:20:27 Great. So in a sense it's one migrant group helping another migrant, you know, academic and many migrant people who are students as well. It's very interesting how it all connects in a constellation of ways. It's so terrific. So, and are you also researching these kind of, you know, sustainability themes in homes as well? Is that part of your research?
Speaker 3 00:20:47 Yes, but research here relies on the sustainable built environment. So, which is quite big. So sustainability in terms of the environmental sustainability. So I did some research on green roofs. So I, I'm lucky to be part of the team for the green roof project on building m on our, on our campus. Yes. Funded by the pantry health. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that is like a showcase of our port of our campus. Yeah. So and some even it open for the, we arranged tours for the general public to visit like secondary school students. Yeah. So I le I led the tour and I introduced the green roof to the secondary students, which is really good as like leaving the poetry as a showcase for them to understand better about how the impact of the green roof to mitigate the climate change, global warming and the urban heat island effect. You
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Know, it used to be said when you flew into Australia, you would look at the red roofs in the future, thanks to you that were people be looking at the green roofs. Yes. And I think that's exciting. That's a very, very important thing. Now what's the latest thing you've written? And I understand you may be working on something for the conversation soon. What's that about? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:21:59 It's about tiny houses. Tiny, tiny houses. Not
Speaker 2 00:22:02 Big. Not
Speaker 3 00:22:03 Big.
Speaker 2 00:22:04 So you mean before we said that even homes were not that large, this is even smaller.
Speaker 3 00:22:08 Yes. Okay. So the tiny houses we normally, we define as houses more than 50 square meter. Okay. Yes. The problem of we with the newspapers, they always talk about housing crisis in Australia because of the high interest rate, high mortgage and the house price is very uncomfortable. It's very difficult to rent a place. It's a long waiting list for the social housing. So we are always looking at what's the way to tackle this housing crisis. So TDY houses like an alternative housing option. So, so that's why I, I write this article, hopefully it will be published this week or next week. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:22:53 Question.
Speaker 3 00:22:53 Okay. Conversation. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:22:55 And are you arguing for different, you know, rules or regulations? What are you arguing? Arguing for in the article?
Speaker 3 00:23:01 Yeah, the perspective of this article is talking about the perspective of the local council. Ah, yeah. They changed their, they relaxed some regulation. The reason why the tiny houses, they are very popular in the US or even in Japan by Tokyo. But the reason why is there's a lot of hurdles in Australia because a lot of restrictions or limitations by local councils, they don't allow people to stay at tiny houses for a long time. They consider is maybe a current or as a temporary shelter rather than the long term.
Speaker 2 00:23:37 Even if people want to,
Speaker 3 00:23:39 Even people want to, yes.
Speaker 2 00:23:42 Fascinating. It's the but
Speaker 3 00:23:43 Last starting to, yeah we can see some local cars, they start to relax the elephant limitations. So, so that's why my article is talking about that.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 I think it's very interesting because you know, people have used phrases in Australia to discuss homes or buildings. They invent a phrase like a granny flat and suddenly everyone talks about it and they even say gf, you have to check, you know when they put GF on things. But isn't it the case that a granny flat wouldn't be much bigger or smaller than a tiny house anyway?
Speaker 3 00:24:14 Yes, you can say that is a quite similar but the granny flats, there's a requirement is that's the dependent person. Like older adults rely on the family to look after. Yes. So there's some relationship between the two. Yes. So yeah, tiny house, we have two types. One is tiny house on foundations and one is tiny house on wheel. Ah. So it's more mobile that's Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:36 On wheels. And so can actually go anywhere. Yes. And be to Yes.
Speaker 3 00:24:39 Yes. So some is normally why the house is not, people are not affordable to buy is because of the land price. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:49 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:24:49 So the house itself, construction is one part, but the land price is another key issues that is very costly.
Speaker 2 00:24:56 Yeah. So we have to have a new series. Yes. Tiny designs, not grand designs. Okay. You know this and we see you on that soon. So. So this is the research we really call this research with impact. And I think, you know, we're going to be having a focus on this and we al already have with, you know, Andy Hill, our DVC researchers leading this. So what do you think is most exciting about the concept research with impact? What does it mean to you?
Speaker 3 00:25:20 I think research with impact is the impact is extending outside the, the purely economic world. Yeah. So that the impact extends to society, to culture, to policy, to environment, even health. So it's a more global perspectives instead of just the pure academic. Yeah. When we talk about pure academics, some academic scholars may just publish papers in top journals, but it's not quite easily accessible by the general offering. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 2 00:25:52 Well we used to say in this regard ing that the best PhD ever written would not have any impact unless it's published and read. You know, and I mean now it's a bit different today with online 'cause you could go open access, but the whole point of being, reaching people's minds, reaching people's eyes, eyes and ideas, that to me is the impact, you know, whatever the vector is. So whether it's an article in a conversation, whether it's something that you do on radio, whether indeed it's even this podcast, it's all part of that process of socializing research with impact. I think it's a fantastic thing. Yes,
Speaker 3 00:26:28 I
Speaker 2 00:26:28 Agree. You know, it's really good. So looking ahead now, we are getting close to the end of this year. We're speaking in December of 2023. But what do you have as your, you know, wonderful goals. It sounds like you probably have goals for 24 and 25 and 2026 already as well. But for next year and 24, what are your main goals and your hopes and dreams for next year?
Speaker 3 00:26:49 I applied for several grants. Yes. Yes, yes. And still waiting for the outcomes. Yes. And let's see how it goes. Okay. Of course if get the grants out, that will be fascinating. But at least I, I'm involved in one of the grants. It's a defect grant already received funding. So it's a Council for Australia Arabic relations grant. Oh
Speaker 2 00:27:10 Yeah. Tell us about that. What's, what's, what's
Speaker 3 00:27:12 That for this funding project? Is the knowledge exchange Adaptive greening solutions to tackle climate change that by associate Professor Amir Germa. Oh, are you? Yeah, I, and I'm part of the team. Great. We compare between Melbourne and two other Arabic countries, Bahrain and Saudi Arabic. So we focusing on green infrastructure and we vari the policies and revenue enablers. Any barriers for implementation of the green infrastructure to mitigate the climate change and global warming.
Speaker 2 00:27:47 Wonderful. Ah, look, well all the worry way around the world. And back again to here, the word green has come up a lot in our discussion and I think you really take it seriously, whether it's green roofs, green infrastructure, green insights or green achievements. Do you have any final thoughts about the hospital and the builds that are in relation to our campus here at Footscray Park to make the whole area more green and sustainable? Do you have any thoughts around that?
Speaker 3 00:28:11 The Leo Hoss, the LEO Foot screen hospital, they are very proud of the green roofs on top of the hospital. Yes. If it can have, build the relation with them and it will become a good life living laboratory for us to do academic research to measure like post occupancy variation R the impact of the green roof to the hospital usage or to the energy consumption is any reduction of Hoss energy consumption of the hospital because we are, we understand hospital use a lot of energy. Yes, definitely. But has the impact of the green roof to the, from areas below. I think that would be quite interesting. And we can also elaborate like not only the, our mental perspective, but also from a social perspective like the hospital users, if they can access to the green roof, what's the benefit in terms of the show health and wellbeing amenities. And if we can extend when we apply for the funding for the pantry health, we, you the green roof on building, it's just a showcase only 50 square meter. Yes. If we have funding we can project a bigger picture. Yes. And, and, and we can connect to the qua park. It's a very beautiful park there. Yes. But the campus really an opportunity for us to provide more green infrastructure.
Speaker 2 00:29:29 I think it's so fascinating how you've joined together infrastructure, the environment at whatever height and the future opportunities that we have. You know, it reminds me that Melbourne is the first city in the world where I've ever seen the type of specific urban honey designated by postcode on the top of green buildings. And that's the kind of thing you're talking about too. The, the whole network and its circular approach. It's been an absolute delight to learn from you, to speak with you and to think about this green future. We can't wait to see what you do next. And of course to read your article in the conversation. So thank you very much. Thank you.
