Prof. Adam Shoemaker with Assoc. Prof. Peter Hurley

Episode 20: Prof. Adam Shoemaker with Assoc. Prof. Peter Hurley

Days like today make Associate Professor Peter Hurley, Director of the Victoria Univeristy's Mitchell Institute, tick. We discussed what he believes are the #UniversitiesAccord opportunities and challenges and how #ChildcareDeserts came about.

Show notes

Days like today (11 April 2023) - when nationwide responses to the Universities Accord Discussion Paper are being submitted - are what make people like Associate Professor Peter Hurley tick.

As the Director of the Mitchell Institute, Victoria University’s educational policy think tank, Peter’s day job is analysing the future of ‘systems’ and telling their stories.

You may be familiar with 'childcare deserts', which – one year on from the report about early childhood education availability – has become consistent media vernacular. That was the brainchild of Peter and his team.

In the most recent episode of the #PeopleofVU podcast, I learned that many of these ideas come to Peter during long runs – among many other unexpected insights into his personality, background and experience. They have all contributed towards the wonderful person we know Peter to be and the highly valued colleague he has become at Victoria University.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon d Bock. My genealogy tracks back to Mora Lakes in Bama Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill, giving me my connections to yada, yada and bar language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seated and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the Ung Undre on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.

Speaker 1 00:01:15 Our hello colleagues. It's fantastic to be back for another episode in our People of EU podcast, and it's such a, a delight to be here. Thank you as always to KJ for, for your acknowledgement of country. It was so important and so impressive. I too acknowledge not only that we are recording on that lens of the Wondery ang people of the Colon nation, but I also want to pay respects to students, staff, listeners, and elders, wherever you may be. And of course, any families of those people as well. From First Nations communities listening to this podcast. It's all for you and we take it incredibly to heart. Today I'm joined in the studio by associate professor Peter Hurley. Peter, it's great to have you with us. Oh, thank you. It's a wonderful thing. And now technically you are in your, in your day job director of Victoria University's wonderful policy Think tank, the Mitchell Institute. That's true. And a highly regarded academic, I've gotta say in your own right. In especially in policy, but many other areas. So, so Peter, you meet someone for the first time at the airport. What do you say you do?

Speaker 2 00:02:23 I say I work for a, I work at a think tank.

Speaker 1 00:02:26 And they get it.

Speaker 2 00:02:27 What that is? Well, no. Or they're intrigued. They say, which one? And I say the Mitchell Institute and they, and you know, this blank look comes on their faces. Oh, what do you do? Right. They say, education policy, and another blank look comes across their face. But, you know, and then, then I talk a bit about, you know, what I do and at the Mitchell Institute and, and education policy and what I might, might be given example. Yeah. You know, school funding, I don't know, tertiary education, you know, universities, that type of stuff. I think people see it as a kind of a cool

Speaker 1 00:02:58 Job actually. Yeah. Once they get to know a little more. Right. So it sounds like you anchor it in something that they could, to which they could relate.

Speaker 2 00:03:04 Absolutely. I get lots of people saying to me, I wish I could. I was, I worked at a think tank. Yeah,

Speaker 1 00:03:09 Yeah. Well, most people do wish that because

Speaker 2 00:03:11 Like, look,

Speaker 1 00:03:12 The truth is you can frame the future not only of government decisions, but of systems. Yes. And you have to be a systems, are you a systems thinker?

Speaker 2 00:03:20 Yeah, I think I am a systems thinker. I mean, the, the, the thing about, I mean, education policy is that I don't think people would quite realize how, how removed it is from, from what they think of education. I think most people would think of education. They'll think about the classroom, they'll think about what's being taught. I mean, so much of what goes on in education policies about funding, you know, how is it, what's the best kind of funding model? How is it that you participation access, all of these type of things that from the governance of education doesn't really come across people's minds. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's very important stuff.

Speaker 1 00:03:52 Well, and I think also that people, if they haven't lived in another country, think that the Australian system is typical of the world, but in fact it's quite different in lots of ways.

Speaker 2 00:04:02 Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, every system's different than every part of our education system is different. One thing I've learned working at the Nstitute example might be what they call e ccc Early Childhood Education and care. The way that we organize our ECC center sector is, is very different from other, other parts of the world. And that has huge impacts on things like, you know, how much it costs, the type of, you know, the workforce who's working in it and all of those, those type of things. So yeah, it differs around the

Speaker 1 00:04:30 World. It's so interesting. Well, let's talk first about the world. Now understand, you were born in Melbourne yourself, but prior to that you had siblings who were with you and your parents as you moved, well actually to Canada and to Ottawa. So tell us a little bit more about your parents and why they moved to Canada when they did.

Speaker 2 00:04:51 I am, I think, I mean, my origin story, I'm one of seven children and I think, and the, and one of the youngest, I'm actually a twin. My twin brother is seven minutes younger than me. So I I that's very important for a twin. Yes. To say that I'm seven minutes, I'm not the youngest. I'm the second youngest. And actually my father was a, was a, was a Mars brother within the Catholic church, actually. He was principal of Marclin. Wow. In, in, in the late 1960s. He was known by a different name then. And then he, he left and, and married my mother. And they, they went to, they went to Canada to start to start a new life. And they had, he had a friend who, who was working at the University of Ottawa. Is there a university? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And so he taught there for a while. They had, they had four kids and then they, they returned and they had another three, and I was one of them.

Speaker 1 00:05:44 So this is about kind of moments of advice and people, it's often, we find it fascinating in life stories, how an individual or a friend or a family member with a piece of advice can change the whole course of your life. It sounds like your father got that advice at that moment from someone special. Look,

Speaker 2 00:06:00 I think he, I I think he had a, you know, a bit of a crisis of faith, I suppose. I mean, if you think about in terms of say, education system and what was happening, I mean, there was very much a role, how I understand it, there was, you know, very much a role for, you know, places like the Catholic church in, in providing those services. Yes. And then a longer history of it. And you can still see some of the hospitals, for instance, in, in the Western Melbourne Mercy and it's owned by the Catholic church and they still run a lot of those services. But that became less and less needed, I think, post-war. And, and so I think that was the path for him. But I think that, I mean, look, it was obviously before my time, but I think that it's, it's, he had a second act in a way. Like, I mean, he started again. And I mean, he didn't have anything when he, when he left the brotherhood. I mean, my understanding, he had two pairs of cities, as they say, two pairs of civilian clothes, you know, no superannuation, none of, none of that type of thing. And started a fresh, and started a big family.

Speaker 1 00:06:53 The reason I ask all that sort of framing, right, is it about that same time, you know, I was in say, high school in Ottawa. Right. And, and of course across the road from university Dewa, which was completely bilingual, right? Yes. And so it was the city where the whole bilingualism and biculturalism life was lived in Canada. So you go to one side of the road, it was French, the other side English, there was even a city within Ottawa called Vanier City, which was fully French speaking. Right. You know, so it, I was wondering, did he pick up or did any of your family pick up that

Speaker 2 00:07:23 We would've been able to speak a bit, but he, he actually had a maths and physics background. Fascinating. And then, yeah, and then I, I mean, eventually what happened was my mother, the plan was that, you know, my mother would, she went back to school, she went to Monash when we were, when we started primary school and became a teacher.

Speaker 1 00:07:45 And she sounds like an amazing person.

Speaker 2 00:07:48 Yes. I'm very lucky with my mother. My mother is a very amazing person. She's a and we love her dearly and yeah.

Speaker 1 00:07:52 You know, really, really good. And let's talk about you then. You, you have a bit of an affinity for French yourself. Why is that?

Speaker 2 00:07:59 Look, I just actually, I'm trying to learn French at the moment. It's a very, I've always wanted to just, I was always very jealous of people who said they were bilingual. And it's very difficult in, I think in a, in Australia, it, it's easy to, to just get by using English. And I just thought that I wanted to, you know, I was, I wasn't a very good French student at high school, and I always wanted to pick it up again. So I have, and in fact this morning I had a, I had a, I have a French teacher and we, we speak on Zoom for, you know, an hour week. And, and she, she lives in Leon and she's a Oh wow. She's an actress and, and she also has this kind of teaching English kind of side thing. And I just think it's a really nice, nice thing to do. Is to, and to keep your mind active.

Speaker 1 00:08:42 You might be ending up as an extra in a film in Leon

Speaker 2 00:08:45 Pet.

Speaker 1 00:08:45 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 00:08:46 Yeah. Absolutely. Actually, Leon's, Leon's

Speaker 1 00:08:49 Beautiful. It is,

Speaker 2 00:08:50 Eh, yeah. Because you spent six months in, in, was it six months in

Speaker 1 00:08:52 To lose? In

Speaker 2 00:08:53 To lose?

Speaker 1 00:08:53 Yeah. Yeah. I was lucky enough to be teaching there. But that's another story where we'll do a separate podcast and you can ask me all about it because it was pretty unforgettable. Yeah. But sincerely, you know, you go from that time. So you were, you were born after that time, so upon return, and then would you say that you had a very Melbourne sort of upbringing? Like, was that sort of, if anyone said your favorite city in the world, is, is this it?

Speaker 2 00:09:16 Look, it's, I, I think I'm a very much a Melbourne and I'm also very much a creature, a product of the suburbs. I think I, I grew up in the a east

Speaker 1 00:09:24 Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:09:25 Of Melbourne. And, and I suppose that was Malia. And you know, I, I love Melbourne, obviously. And, and I mean, I've never lived anywhere else. I've, I've, I mean, I travel a lot and I'd love to travel, but, and maybe, maybe later on, I, I might find a, you know, I might, I like the idea of living, living somewhere else, but there's so much to

Speaker 1 00:09:46 Offer. I know,

Speaker 2 00:09:47 Eh, here and yeah,

Speaker 1 00:09:48 The world is here. But if you had to pick anywhere in the world that you could live Paris.

Speaker 2 00:09:52 Oh,

Speaker 1 00:09:53 There you go. There you

Speaker 2 00:09:54 Go.

Speaker 1 00:09:55 Are you going to the Olympics?

Speaker 2 00:09:56 No. Too many people. Too many people. Too many people. So that's not the reason. Yeah, yeah. Apparently. I think that they've somewhere, somewhere there, I

Speaker 1 00:10:04 Think. Yeah. So there's, I can see there's affinity that's coming through. Now tell me, of all the people that I have worked with, you're one of the ones who's the most integrative of all the different education sectors. Like, you know a lot about primary and early childhood, you know, a lot about secondary, you know, tons about tafe and you're an expert in tertiary. So how did you get this breadth?

Speaker 2 00:10:25 I think, well, it's part of the job. And, and also, and also before, before I started the, you know, the missions, I've been at Mission Student Victoria University for maybe four years. I four years don't know. Yeah. For a, you know, good time and a long time. And I didn't know much about, say, early childhood for instance, or even really the debates within the, within the education system. And

Speaker 2 00:10:51 You just have to learn it. I think one thing that I found really useful is, is listening to, they have senate estimates and they broadcast them and, and, and they have, you know, the, the head, you know, public servants get up and they get grilled by these politicians and you know, they ask them about student debt or they'll ask 'em about cost and, you know, all the big debates that are going on. And, and actually it's, it's extremely useful to get a sense of, of what's going on. I mean, also speaking to people. So for instance, we, last week we held a, we held an event in honor of Peter Newnan, who was a, who was a much a colleague of, of, of ours at Victoria University and at the Mitchell Institute. And he was a, I mean, he was really helpful in, in providing that kind of knowledge and that background about all those little, all those little which of, I suppose in that little, cuz they're multi-billion dollar agreements, but all those little agreements that, that, that governments have between states and, and the, and the meaning behind them. And they're really, it's really important to, to have to get your mind around them.

Speaker 1 00:11:48 And it really matters. I mean, it was, as, you know, we just speak a bit about the legacy of Peter Newnan, that he too saw the connections between the different segments of education almost better than anyone and how it could be brought together for a better outcome for the life chances of every citizen. Like that's a pretty impressive thing. And the Mitchell Institute is focused on that issue as well. It,

Speaker 2 00:12:10 It certainly has an equity focus. And I mean, Peter was always, I, Peter was, he was an inquiring mind. He was always thinking about it and, and you know, how to make the system better or how, how, you know, whose interest does this system work for? Yeah. And it's, it's certainly, it's certainly a, a, you know, a focus of the Mitchell Institute. I mean, it's a broad agreement, isn't it? I mean, and that's just the education component, but there's also the health side,

Speaker 1 00:12:33 The

Speaker 2 00:12:33 Health component too. But it's, it is a, it is a big, it is a big task, but, you know, I'm never short of anything to say. No,

Speaker 1 00:12:40 That's great. Thank Kevin for that. So, so let's get to some things that we're saying things about. Okay, so let's talk about that. The early childhood area, we've just gestured at here. Yeah. But you have looked at it and perhaps the phrase that you're best known for at the minute is childcare deserts. So whose phrase is it, and why is it so telling in the public mind that that's something which, you know, people quoted back to us as an issue?

Speaker 2 00:13:02 Yes. I mean, making a career out of childcare deserts, I think so Childcare des I mean, it's an interesting thing. So something like childcare deserts is an, an example of what a think tank does. It's, it's, there's a lot of stuff within the literature, as they say, around how is it that you measure access to, to certain services. You know, whether that could be parks, whether that's, you know, banks, you know, hospitals, all of those type of things. And access to early, you know, early learning, early childhood education care is another part of that. And there's whole series of articles about people improving the mathematics behind how you measure it and you know, all that type of stuff. And that's, that's really important. But what we would do is we would take that and we would translate it, we would use it and we would apply it to a problem.

Speaker 2 00:13:47 Yeah. And so the problem in this instance is one of the, I think there's four major issues in, in early childhood there. One is cost, access, quality, and workforce. And this one of access is what this thing really, really tackles. It looks at all the, all the available childcare, what we, they call childcare, long daycare across Australia. And it says, you know, it maps where there's more and where there's less and you kind of put a catchy phrase around it, you know, childcare, childcare deserts. And, and it, it really, I think it look, it really took off. It really took off. And I think for several reasons, first of all, if you can make something about people and relevance to them and where they live, that's really important. And also, it, it took off because it, it really resonated with a lot of people saying, yeah, I can't get access to childcare. It's

Speaker 1 00:14:30 Actually true. Yes,

Speaker 2 00:14:31 True. That's, and you can't, it cannot be unseen, you know, to this, these, you know, and, and in these locations, particularly in regional and rural Australia, they're, you know, yeah. So, I mean, it's a, that's been a, that's been a really important thing in terms of where it's origin look, it comes from the, it comes from the literature as they say, like childcare desert. But also there was a, there was a think tank in America who did a similar thing, which I thought, well that's a, it's a good idea. Yeah. So I kind of adapted that as well. But yeah, it's, it's, that's an example I think of, of what a think tank does.

Speaker 1 00:15:04 Yeah. And it's a really great example. So on your work list for this year, look at what we're looking at the, the key elements of what could be called the Accord and the key elements of Thea review. So you, yourself and the team, and we'll talk about how big that team is in a minute are going to be involved. What kinds of areas are you going to really focus on? Because there could be so many, but what would you really like to target and contribute to this year? So

Speaker 2 00:15:29 The, the university was a really interesting kind of process. I mean, it was a labor government election promise to implement an accord process. In many ways it grew out of a problem because of the pandemic Yeah. Universities having difficulty, particularly with international students, and also the introduction of what they call the job ready graduate program, which, which was a whole set of funding announcements and a and a, you know, changing the funding rates for, for, for different courses. But it doesn't really make sense. It, it, it, it's not, it's not a policy that people, people want. It changed. Yeah. And so this, this, okay. Review is looking at the whole, the whole system and, and it's very broad. I mean, the released discussion paper with about 49, you know, questions that, that they're looking at now, we've been involved in that and we've had a couple of conversations and we're, we are hoping to work more closely or closer with the, with the department. And they're certainly interested in that. We've put, certainly put in some proposals for them. I'd really like to look at international students because I think the international student one's really interesting story. And so important to the, to the health of the tertiary education sector. Funding is another one. Education to work transitions is another one of interest. And also the issues around say, admissions and, and credit policy. I mean, we'll do anything, but they're the ones that we're, that we are thinking that we can help that others can't. So

Speaker 1 00:16:50 Just for the sake of those who are listening, international students are really potentially future migrants. They're people who contribute to Australian huge ways, even if they do return to their country of origin. But what is the issue that needs to be solved there? What, what do you think is the issue?

Speaker 2 00:17:05 Well, there's lots of issues. And I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm shocked whenever I write anything about international students, the response that you get. I mean, in many ways, working at Think Tank, part of the argument, the part of the, the task is educating people about how the system works. So for instance, I often get asked questions around, are international students taking local students places and say, no, that's not, that's not how it works in terms of international students from a policy perspective. I mean, there's so important. Yeah. I mean there's something, before the pandemic, it was 10 billion worth of income or revenue going into the universities from international students. Now that's just what they're collecting through their tuition fees. It, it was on track to, to exceed the, the amount of money that universities receive for domestic students. I think that international students is, is not understood generally across, across society. I think one of the things that's really wonderful about working in universities is we know how important international students are. They're part of our community there. We see them on campus, they're, we know their value, but kind of explaining that value is, is, is can, is I think often part of the task because it's often seen as, you know, that's the categorical equivalent of, of a, of a, of a harvest. Yeah. They're worth 40 billion. Yeah. You know, but yet there's actually a lot of, there's a human story behind that.

Speaker 1 00:18:22 Well, that's what I want to get to. So isn't that sort of harvest terminology, bit reprehensible really? Because after all, would, you know, if you're walking around anywhere in the Western Melbourne and we have people who speak more than 150 different languages, isn't the only difference that people have a visa or not? So what are international students in the first place? I mean, isn't it just, is the term even a right, the right term?

Speaker 2 00:18:46 Well, I mean, I think international students, I mean they, in so many ways, they actually tick the lot of boxes of being quite a marginalized group. You know, they, they're unable to access services. They're away from their home country. They're away from their support networks. Yeah. They're, they're relatively, I mean, they're, they're exposed. And we saw that during the pandemic, the lying of people, you know, trying to get food. I mean, it was, it's, it's a, it's a, it is a big, it's a, it's a big issue. Yeah. Having said that, I think there are also kind of realities about the migration system. I mean, there's a, and you know, there are a limited number of places that, that, that will available for a permanent migration. I don't think it's managed very well. And I don't think we are using international students in a way that supports our tertiary sector. Yeah. In the best way that it can.

Speaker 1 00:19:33 In fact, our whole polity, and it's not even just the tertiary sector, it's, it's the future of Australia too. So this is a very interesting thing. So you yourself deal with this daily, what about the health side of the equation? Cuz isn't in fact early childhood learning also part of the health care budget in a way you can think about it as more than just learning. It's, it's much more.

Speaker 2 00:19:55 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, I mean that that health debate and the wellbeing debate and I mean certainly some of the discussions we've been having with, with some of our, so we're part of, we're part of many networks and, and lots of groups. And, and this idea, using, using that as an example, very, very say the zero to two age of of children. Yes. Yes. That kind of difference between say the health system and the education system is, is, is it's more porous and it, the system isn't really set up very well for it. And you know, there's, we are looking at ways to say, okay, are there ways that we can co-locate services, maternal health services, you know, not just childcare and someone as an education thing to help, to help families and to support parents. Because it's, those, those first few years are so crucial. I mean, those first, I mean if home is where we start from somewhere like ECC is gonna be the next place that most of us will end up. And, and making sure that those steps are, are, are done well and people do, you know, make those transitions in, in a strong way is so important for their, for their future. And if you want to have, you know, a big impact on, on people's lives, start

Speaker 1 00:21:00 Young. Start young and, and see if there's a huge amount there that could be done to be in the benefit of people. Place a nation and we're in a position to do it. So Peter, getting back to just points of careers. Yeah. What's the next big project that you would love to do that you haven't had time to do?

Speaker 2 00:21:16 Oh, okay. Well we're doing one at the moment around say food deserts and food swamps. Building on when you're on the winner, you know, with the, with, and that actually is where the term comes from. Childcare deserts. It's a, it's, it comes from food deserts. And this is this idea that access to healthy eating or places that sell healthy food can be, can differ via location. Right. And this idea of food swamps is when there's a preponderance of, or or or greater number of, you know, bad food outlets, you know, take great place. And that's really interesting project and getting all the data off Google. I love a map. Yes. You know, and so we're, we are doing that, I'd really wanna do something more on international students. Yes. I think it's really important, the whole vocational education and training sector. I'd love to do more. And we are certainly planning on on doing more, more reports on that because I don't, I think it's very much, it's very misunderstood what the vet sector is, what it does. I mean, from an outside perspective, you said vet, most people think of a dog, you know, so Yes. And if you talk, if you're saying actually no, it's vocational education training, most people think of it as tafe. Yes. Or apprenticeships. Yeah. And it's actually a very different kind of, or

Speaker 1 00:22:25 Trades even sometimes it's interpreted I think by some people that way. But as you say, acronyms can be very misleading. You know, lots of different ones. But even given that, and it's so, so important, you know, the kind of continuum, do you believe that we will see a single unified tertiary system as at the end of this accord discussion?

Speaker 2 00:22:44 Do you want me to be on this? Not really. I think I, I I mean that's the dream, isn't it? Yeah. I mean it's been, it's been thought of that for, for, for about 25, 30 years I think. But I mean, the thing about, say the difference between the vet sector and the, the vocational sector and the higher ed sector is that they actually operate on a whole different set of languages. So the vet sector operates in using this using competency as, as its outcomes. And, and the higher ed has has a different type of language. And, and, and until that somehow, like it's very difficult to have a unified sector when, when their, when their, their, their core structure is actually different. Sure. You can improve the connections. The other issues I think also around say governance. Yeah. Because it's a, I mean if you had say the federal government taking over that, then you, you might

Speaker 1 00:23:31 Get that, you might get it in that sense cuz it's got a line up in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And so let's, back to you personally. I feel that in addition to all these other projects, you've got a creative project in you, it feels like, could be, you know, a book book or something else. A series of vignettes to use that French term. What is it, what are you thinking about creatively like that? Is there something that you've got on, you know, in the top drawer,

Speaker 2 00:23:55 A garden? I'm, you know, I think look creatively, I I'm finding that writing for instance, like, it, it, I take most of my writing is, is you know, it's work. Yes. And that's great. And I'm, I'm not a very good creative writer, but, you know, I like doing creative things. So I think I'd, I'd like to do more gardening. I

Speaker 1 00:24:17 Like creative gardening,

Speaker 2 00:24:18 Creative garden. What's a creative act? I think it is. And language. I'd like to pick up another language if I had the time. Yep. And running.

Speaker 1 00:24:28 Oh, I was just gonna ask you about that. Yeah. And you look forward to that immensely, don't you? That's that's part of the process of a day.

Speaker 2 00:24:35 Oh, I loved lockdown. I know everyone, I, I mean some of my colleagues hated it. They had, you know, they had three screaming kids and they were, you know, homeschooling is great for me. I just, you know, I could, I could run, I could, you know, I'd, I'd go on a an hour, 60 minute, never longer than that 60 minute run, you know? Yes. Every day.

Speaker 1 00:24:52 Five kilometers out.

Speaker 2 00:24:53 Five kilometers back. Back. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I do like, I do like running and yeah, it's a, it's a

Speaker 1 00:25:02 Pleasure. Do you solve a lot of these intellectual and policy problems while you're

Speaker 2 00:25:06 Doing it? Absolutely. I can't tell you how long, I mean, the amount of times I was just thinking about childcare while I'm running, just so I, you know, and also going through how do we do this also trying to learn all these, the names of these far away places that, you know, I get asked about and Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a way of kind of ruminating on things. There's a book, I'm not sure if you've read it, called by he's a Japanese author. Yes. And it was what I, what I write about when I write about running. Yes, yes. There was his memoir running and his argument was that everything he learned from running about writing was from running. And there is something about that, that just constant movement or that's just, you know, step after step. And I think

Speaker 1 00:25:44 It's so true. Yeah. And it's the rhythm as well as the physicality. Like both go together. And of course if you think of Alan Sto as the longness of the long-Distance runner, there's, there's a few, it's amazing film, wonderful films. And of course there's an equivalent of of an audio book of the Murakami. Yeah. Which is making its rounds I think amongst a number of people at Vu who do run. So just to let you know you're onto something. Yeah, absolutely. And we should be inviting Mukai to the Mitchell Institute to present, don't you think? Absolutely. He's an educationalist. Is

Speaker 2 00:26:14 He really? Oh well, yes.

Speaker 1 00:26:15 Well yes. Abroad

Speaker 2 00:26:16 In Yes. He didn't realize it. Yeah. Incidentally. Yeah, that's

Speaker 1 00:26:19 Right. But that's the kind of aspiration we want to think big. So if you had someone in the world that you'd like to invite to the Mitchell Institute and let's acknowledge the generosity of Harold Mitchell, whom you just recently met in so doing, who would it be?

Speaker 2 00:26:33 I think I would invite probably an academic by the name of Steven Ball, who's, who's from the uk who's very famous in, in education policy. But I think also I'd, I'd advise anyone who can, who could bring attention to, to the work that we do. Cuz I think it's, I think it's so important. So the, you know, any celebrity, you know, that that would be a, a good thing too. But yeah, anyone who would, who would give us a, you know, the head of the World Health Organization, you know, you know Mattias Corman. Yes. Tell us about the O E C D, you know, but yeah, just, just, you know, I hope that I can, I also would hope that the Mitchell Institute can be a place where a think tank and being able to provide a place for thinking, I think is a very rare thing in, in today's world. And anyone who could come in and, and, and help us think about these issues would be more than welcome. Yeah. I mean, that'd be great.

Speaker 1 00:27:22 And at at that level, you know, if you bring together the thinking, the policy, the digital and the enablement, I was thinking it would be great to have Zani Minton Betos, the editor of the Economist, come and visit. You know, wouldn't that be a fantastic thing to generate around a lot of issues, the future of Victoria, the future of what we do in collaboration with our flip campus model of industry, the future of different forms of learning and research. I think The Economist you is a model.

Speaker 2 00:27:49 Oh, absolutely. And, and also, I mean, I've, the economist is, is it's very interesting. I'd love to hear them talk about their work. Yeah. And, and hearing about what is it that, that the stories that that, that make a difference. Yes. Because that's one thing I've also learned from working at a think tank is that people is just, it's just that what, what resonates or what, what actually kind of will take off. And it's so important to, to frame debates and the economist in place that they do it so well. So

Speaker 1 00:28:16 Well, so if you come back to the very first question was what you say to the person that you meet at on the tram Storytelling? Yeah. At the end. Storytelling. Yes. Zani, we'd like to tell stories with you, for example. And Peter, the story you've told is outstanding and can't wait to see what you do next. The new chapters that you're writing with everyone in the, I want to acknowledge all the team. It's just a fabulous team of people who have come from so many different sources in health backgrounds, in disability backgrounds and analytical backgrounds. It's just a super wonderful place and we're so proud that it's part of vu.

Speaker 2 00:28:48 Thank you. And I'm so happy to be part of, it's a very rare thing to be able to do what we could do and, and it's certainly something that we wanna make sure

Speaker 1 00:28:55 We will together. Thank you.

Subscribe now

Get new episodes of People of VU automatically