Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Dani Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the rung wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 It's an real delight here to have you with us, Koel, Rana, and one of our students, but also one of our colleagues working at vu, studying at vu, being in Australia. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 00:01:29 Thank you so much, Mr. Adam. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 00:01:31 It's an absolute delight. I'd love to know more about you and how your journey led you to come to this country in the first place. So let's talk a bit first about where you grew up. So maybe just give us an indication where were you born and so forth, and what was your family situation at the time? Yep.
Speaker 3 00:01:48 All right. So I come from India and I'm from the capital, which is Delhi. Yeah. I did my bachelor's, I did my schooling, everything back in India. And I did my bachelor's in English literature from Delhi University. Correct. I'm not sure if you've heard of
Speaker 2 00:02:01 Its, I have been there. You have?
Speaker 3 00:02:03 Yes. Oh, that's amazing. Yes. Do you, do you find it interesting?
Speaker 2 00:02:05 I did. Okay. I was also going to JNU for the day. Oh,
Speaker 3 00:02:08 Amazing. Amazing. Wow. I always wanted to get into JNU to be honest. Yeah. But, so
Speaker 2 00:02:12 Jaha Niru University, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So they called JNU. Yeah. And I was at a NU, so we made a joke out of it saying A and J together.
Speaker 3 00:02:20 Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I did my bachelor's there and then I was doing theater for three years of my life. Ah. And I think between like studying English literature and doing theater, you know, I was trying to navigate, you know, the society and the the, because the moment you get out of school, you know, there's a whole world outside, you know, and you have to like, as you're studying and as you're going out and working and you start to navigate how society functions, you know? Yeah. What are the standards that you have to meet? So I think in that, in that time, you know, I sort of realized that there is a huge sort of impact that my education system has had on me in my behavior. The way I approach to people, the way I talk, the way I just, I, you know, just naturally think.
Speaker 3 00:03:04 Yep. And I think then Covid happened. You know, I graduated in I think 2020. 2020. That was the time I graduated from my bachelor's. Wow. And when the, you know, covid hit. So it was just everything the world stopped, you know? And I think I had a time to rethink about certain things. And then I started teaching back in India for two years. So it was just an online, so I started working with these companies, education companies. Yes. That was the first time a lot of things was coming in India when it comes to social science. Like soft skills. Right. Not social sciences, soft skills. Yes. Which is not predominantly catered when I was in school. Yeah. You know, it was more about just science and maths and commerce and accounts and you know, not very much catered to soft skills. So I started teaching for two years and I think I was responsible for the holistic development of students coming from five to 15 years of age group.
Speaker 3 00:04:00 Right. And I think in that space I realized that there's so much that needs to, you know, that needs, that needs to be addressed outside classroom spaces. Oh yeah. You know, there's, I, I mean with all due respect, teachers, you know, play a huge role in terms of shaping your identity and as a student. But I think there's so much more that happens within the classroom, through the curriculum, the pedagogies, you know, through the, the PO policies within the education system. So I think that is when I decided I want to move upward. Yes. You know, in the on on the administrative and manual rules in education. Yeah. And why I chose Australia and an international education because while studying bachelor's of English literature, I could sense that social sciences are not revolutionized in our country. You know, there's a, there's a massive gap because as we say, in a developing country, STEM holds the country's ground ground together.
Speaker 3 00:04:59 Yes. So naturally, you know, education system did favor stem as compared to social sciences. Sure. And that also comes with pay and you know, how you've been treated. So I think that led me to, you know, choose international education and masters outside India. Yeah. Australia was my first choice, to be honest. Interesting. And so did you have other choices besides that or not? I did consider other choices, yes. Yes. But I think I was always very like fascinated by the climate and by the beauty of Australia, you know, sort of was very naturally drawn towards this is where I wanna study also because I didn't like the climate of India, especially Delhi. Ah-huh. So I think that was one of the reasons. Yes. And also not one of the reasons. Yes. The other reason was I wanted to get into, like I said, you know, I felt social sciences are not revolutionized in India. Yes. And when I chose Australia, especially Vu, because I wanted to get into research. Yes. I want to under, because I think research is a, you know, way where you can actually get into the, in depth of everything and understand yourself, you know? Sure. That how you have to navigate things. So I think when I opted for Masters of education, I, you know, sort of reviewing other universities, I think view was the only one who actually gave me an opportunity to continue my masters and also with research.
Speaker 2 00:06:17 Interesting. Yeah. Yes. Because not all, not all do not a lot
Speaker 3 00:06:19 Of coursework Masters. Yeah. I think most of the universities in Australia, they don't give you an opportunity to do your thesis in your masters. Yes. Unless, or until it's a master's by
Speaker 2 00:06:29 Research. Unless it's a hundred percent research. Research. Correct.
Speaker 3 00:06:31 Exactly. But I didn't wanna do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:32 So, so let me just try a thread through this 'cause it's very interesting. Yeah. There's a performative thread. Yeah. There's a kind of, shall we say, I'll call it a colonial thread. 'cause English literature has a certain through line. Yeah. You know, there. Yeah. And it's gone everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. And also in English and in translation. That's right. And then there's a kind of reactive to it thread. Yeah. Which is what you're picking up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So then you're at the stage of saying, I've had this tradition. Yeah. I've even performed it. Yeah. I've been in theater. Yeah. Musical theater as
Speaker 3 00:06:59 Well. Yes. Straight stage theater and street theater.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 Both. Yeah. Yeah. Both. So I would've thought, and some of that's influenced by English literature also. No,
Speaker 3 00:07:07 No. It was all, it was all, we all made it, it was ba it was remotely based on all the social issues that we have back at home.
Speaker 2 00:07:15 Oh, sorry. Just tell us a little more about that. That's really interesting. 'cause that goes to the third thread, I think. Yeah. Okay. The
Speaker 3 00:07:21 Reactive one. Yeah. Yeah. So major issues that we covered through street theater was the reservation system that we have back in India. Yeah. Yeah. And plastic pollution, you know. Right. And rape, you know. Okay. And all these issues were catered through street theater because through street theater you can actually get in contact and you can out actually reach out larger audiences, you know? Oh, that's true. And you can have the that com communication and you know, you can get that communication and conversation going. Yeah. Yeah. So it was majorly focused on that. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:07:51 Yeah. That's amazing. Look, I'm very pleased you told me. 'cause here we are talking about International Women's Day. Yeah. And about working towards the future trajectory Yeah. Of empowerment for, for women and girls. Yeah. And of course that sounds like part of what you were doing in the street theater. Yeah. Much more than in the formal study perhaps. Exactly. Is that true? Yes. Yes. And now it, is it the case that you're trying to bring both of those insights in
Speaker 3 00:08:12 Together? Together?
Speaker 2 00:08:13 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:08:13 Ah-huh. I mean I did. I do. I, I think I'm still navigating that, you know, how to incorporate that within my professional domain here. But I think I'm still, I still have to like think and navigate that section. Yeah. Because the professor that I worked with, he's amazing. Yeah. Like, you know, I think I've been blessed to have him as a professor because I think a lot of my journey and growth actually has come from the right guidance and, you know, this is the huge role that teachers play in our lives, you know? So I think he did push me towards if I would want to navigate theater going ahead, because now I've, you know, done this thesis and everything. I've got a understanding of the discourse, you know, might as well use it creatively somewhere. So yes. That is in the plan. It is
Speaker 2 00:08:53 In the plan, yes. Okay. I was just deducing a bit of this, you know, sort of getting the pattern of Yeah. Because everything, every thesis has a pattern. Yeah. And you can sort of graph it. Correct. You know, from different sources. Yes. It's very interesting to see. Absolutely. Yeah. So then, and another source for you is like, you've done a lot in international student sort of empowerment and associations as well. How did that fit in? Like why did you, at International Student Association, for example Yeah. What attracted you to that?
Speaker 3 00:09:16 I think there are systemic inequalities in institutions. Yeah. You know, and I think not everyone can be a part of those institutions to, and those structures to be able to challenge that. Yeah. And I think that is where advocacy comes into play. True. You know, and I think my journey was completely opposite. Yes. I got into the advocacy first. Yes. In order to understand, okay. How, because I think as international student, you also have to navigate the whole system altogether because it's completely different back in India. Right. I was up my game, you know, before enrolling because we don't have systems, especially coming from Delhi University, we didn't have systems, you know, we had everything just by communication and forms. Yes. So we never used to use any like, you know, computers
Speaker 2 00:10:04 Hardly online at all because
Speaker 3 00:10:06 It was a government university also. Yeah. So for me it was just to navigate the entire system altogether was a challenge. I think for most of the international students It is. Yes. You know, so I think that is where I wanted to, because a lot of my issues were not resolved. And that is why I thought, okay, you know what, because I've got information now. Yes. I have done my work and I've pretty much prepped myself for it. Yeah. Why not? You know, I can help other students as well, and especially international students. And that is where, you know Right. My, it's a good
Speaker 2 00:10:34 Thing. Yeah. It's a good thing. Well, look, I mean, in my own, in my own case as a, as a young person, I was in my second year Okay. At a university in Canada. Yeah. And I became what's called the first year representative in my second year. In a second
Speaker 3 00:10:46 Year. Which
Speaker 2 00:10:46 Is a very odd thing. Yeah. But it's like an advocacy position for the rights of first year students. Correct. Because I've been one. Yes. So it's a bit like your story. Yes. You know, you kind of know what you're talking about. Yeah. And you can see the flaws. Correct. But also the strengths Yeah. But know that you can't be silent. Correct. About either one. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 00:11:01 And it's really interesting. And I think it's the same, like I got into the advocacy in my second year. Mm. 'cause in my first year, yeah. I was just trying to navigate everything and I just couldn't find much help, you know? Correct. And I don't know, for some, for some reason I never reached out to university. Wow. I was only trying to find resources outside university, you know? Interesting. In my first year. And that is when this opportunity came to me and, you know, I started to engage more in university and then realized there are so many resources inside the university where you can reach out and help students. You know, so. Yeah. So I
Speaker 2 00:11:29 Was good for you. That's great. Yeah. Because, you know, it is often said about universities, they have more resources that are less known Exactly. Than just about any other institution. I
Speaker 3 00:11:36 Think it's very less talked about outside.
Speaker 2 00:11:37 Yeah. And once you find out, you say what an incredible thing it absolutely. But we're not always great at broadcasting it. Absolutely. You know, hence the podcast to broadcast, if I can put it that way. You know what I mean? We're talking about this now. Yeah. So, and so if I could admissions, which where where you're currently working is part of that process too. Yes. Broadcasting people's rights. Yeah. Also what their responsibilities are and how we can navigate both to their benefit. Correct. Especially if we're talking about empowerment as we are in the International Women's day context. Absolutely. So are you finding you're able to do that and maybe put even a bit of your theory into practice? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:12:12 Yeah. If you, if you talk about just women and guilt Yes, absolutely. But not the international cohort, because I'm into domestic conditions.
Speaker 2 00:12:21 I see, I see.
Speaker 3 00:12:22 I didnt know, but it, it fulfills two yes. Goals of mine. Yeah. Which was when I did my thesis, theoretically, I sort of under understood. Okay. There is, there are some ground movements Yeah. That have been going on for ages and years and centuries, but there's also the system and administration that makes university function. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And there's a huge gap between the two. Mm mm. You know? Yeah. So in order to unders, this is something I, I don't know if some, I think one of my friends or the, the, the co my friend in theater, she, she told me this, this one line that until you don't become a part of the system, you can't change it. Right. So you have to be a part of the system in order to bring some changes. Yes. You know, advocacy and activism. Good. Great.
Speaker 3 00:13:10 Yes. But that's the path that I took and then I sort of found an end game to it. Yes. Like I couldn't Yes. Do much about it. You know, and that is where I thought I might have to change my path. You know, I might have to get into the administration to be able to understand Okay. How these institutions actually function in the first place. Yeah. You know, to just oppose something blindly is, is something that I never wanted to do. You know, I wanted to understand. Okay. And the gaps between the two. Yeah. And then only if there is a gap and there is a possibility to change things, we can definitely bring a change and talk about it more. Yeah. But I think just going, you know, just, just going on opposing things, it's very easy. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:13:51 Well, and also a bit frustrating at times. Be
Speaker 3 00:13:52 And frustrating at times. It be because Yeah. And I think that's what happened with me. Yeah. Especially when I was doing theater, you know, it was, it was an activism in, in, in a creative form, you know? And then with the advocacy as well. Yes. Because I think there have been, there were students which I couldn't really help. Oh yeah. 'cause I didn't, I didn't have the power in itself. Yeah. True. 'cause I can, you know, infos and, you know, push their matters to the university. But there's something that, that's, it's, there's a boundary to it. Right.
Speaker 2 00:14:18 So if we try and sort of summarize it, I mean, I think it's fascinating 'cause you're in it Yeah. You're advocating about it and you're theorizing about it all at the same time. Correct. Okay. Yeah. So both subject and object. Object, I use those terms. Right. But also it's fascinating about the master's house and the master's tools as they call it. You know, who's, who's wielding what, what if I can put it that way. Right. You know? Yeah. But tell me what the topic is for the, the work that you're doing now. What do you think it will be?
Speaker 3 00:14:44 Okay. So when I did my thesis, it was mostly about the competitive analysis between two countries, which is India and Australia. Yes. Primarily focusing India. Yeah. Because I've spent like 16 years of my education there. Yes. And two years here. Yes. Yeah. So I would, I would say there's Aust Australian education system helped me to bridge that analysis. Yeah, yeah. But it's not entirely focused to Australia. Right. It's more of India because you know how the identity has been distorted. Yeah. You know? Yeah. How I'm still figuring out, figuring out who I am Yes. In this, you know, first nation country. Yes. You know, and that's hugely been impacted by how the education system was designed and structured still. Yes. And we still are dealing with the implications of decolonization back at home. Yes. You know, it's still not there when you read and when you go about literature in Indian scholars and academics, it's very abstract. You know, it's, they're still trying to under understand who they are as, as nation, as people, you know. Oh, true. And I think, I believe that we don't really live in a post-colonial world because, you know, it's
Speaker 2 00:15:40 Just, well, I agree with you. It's very hard to be post Yeah. When you're not post. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:15:44 Very not, you're still in it,
Speaker 2 00:15:45 In it, you know. Yeah. And so it's a bit like, is it anti or what form of colonialism? Yeah. You know, in other words, as you said, you know, it's, there's a lot of theory around what can one do. Yeah. But looking at the results Yeah. It's an ongoing thing. Yeah. You know, it's great. Well, look, I, I'm think just to bring that together. Yeah. You've got publishing, you've got speaking Yeah. Performative work and advice Yeah. And advocacy. Yeah. And it's all coming together in the work that you're doing. It's a great example of the inside and outside. Right. All at once. Right. And so when you're talking about the, the rights debate, you know, for women going forward, it's also very relevant. Yeah. Because you can imagine, you know, women who migrate and the rights that they give up Yep. And the rights that might acee to them or that they might obtain.
Speaker 2 00:16:29 Okay. But they don't always. Yep. So I think you're really well positioned to do all of that work. Yeah. You know, I can't imagine the title yet for this, but it's gonna be fascinating. Some sort of inside, outside Yeah. You know, approach to the dilemma. Yeah. So if I can use an example, there's many different theories of education and they usually come from somewhere else. Somewhere else. Yeah. France. Yeah. Yeah. Italy. Yeah. Often in early childhood in particular, you know, France for secondary Yeah. And others, PI and others. Not that many from Australia itself, but maybe you could be one of the first. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:16:59 Well, yes, I, I'd love that to be honest. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:02 I get the feeling that you might well be, and it's a wonderful thing to talk about it. Yeah. But most importantly, it's a wonderful thing for others to hear about it. And we thank you for this today as
Speaker 3 00:17:09 Well. And I think, yeah, I would just like to add that, because I've just been here for 2.5 years now. Yeah. You know, and moving forward I plan to live in Australia. I I really like this country, you know? Yeah. But I think decolonization discourse in a settler colony is very different than where I come from. Yes. So to navigate that, that to understand that you have to, you know, live and understand the culture itself. You have to understand people, you have to understand the history. I've started to engage in Australian history, you know? Yeah. So I think to be able to understand what actually decolonization discourse would mean in education setting, and as you know, in general, it would take years. And I think, you know, that's why I'm not rushing into it, you know,
Speaker 2 00:17:44 Don't, oh, you don't have to.
Speaker 3 00:17:45 I I just would. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:46 You know. Well, I,
Speaker 3 00:17:47 I'm gradually,
Speaker 2 00:17:48 Yeah. I was part of an organization that was based in India on studying Australian literature. Yeah. Okay. And there's such examples, you know, around the world. Not English literature in this case, but specifically Australian and specifically indigenous Australian writing. Yeah. It's very interesting and influential in parts of India. So as an example, we think it's only just for the market here. It's actually for the world. It's not. Yeah. And that is perhaps another place to go. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, VU is a good place for that too. Yeah. That's great. But thank you again for the wonderful talk that we've had. Thank you so much. It's been absolutely great. And I, I'd ask everyone to join us in thanking Kuol. Hannah, thank you again. Thank you so much,
Speaker 3 00:18:24 Adam. Thank you so much.
