Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the rung wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Hello, colleagues, and welcome to the People of VU podcast. I am so delighted to be with you. And I first of all want to thank Karen Jackson KJ for providing her acknowledgement of country, which he does at the beginning of every episode. Not just because it's at the beginning, but because it matters. And to us in the state of Victoria with the first treaty legislation now passed, it's a an ever present moment to think of how important this is for all of us to consider. Thank you kj. It's part of what we do here at vu. Now I'm with one of my friends, colleagues and one of the, the most eminent scholars in the area of the Middle East and Central Asia. Professor Amin Al, A-M-F-A-S-S-A, and Amin, if I may use just his first name, is I'm we're proud to say is one of our colleagues here as well. He's a Vice chancellor's strategic fellow in politics and global affairs at vu. He also has three other roles, not that he's not busy enough just with us, but it's Emeritus Professor of Middle Eastern, central Asian Studies at the A NU, which is where we were formerly colleagues, adjunct professor at the University of Western Australia, and a visiting professor also at the sj Roger Ratnam School of at Nan Yang Technological University in Singapore. It keeps you pretty busy. I, I mean, I think it's wonderful to have you with us.
Speaker 3 00:02:35 Thank you very much, Adam, and thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2 00:02:37 It's, it's such a, a pleasure. I'm gonna talk in Interleaved throughout the discussion today about the things you've done, what you've achieved. But we won't just do it at the front in terms of biography. However, it is the case that when you write a book, it's noticed. So I just was gonna start off with, you know that question. Which one do you love the most of all the books you've written?
Speaker 3 00:03:00 Well, my first book was titled The Rise and Fall of the Shah, and the first edition of it came out in 1980. And those days I was very young and had plenty of hair in my head. That book became an international bestseller. Yeah, yeah. And then the second edition of it, an updated and expanded edition of it came at in 2009, which was also reviewed widely and praised very widely. And the other book at that I'm very proud of is called A Modern Afghanistan, A History of Struggle and Survival. Yeah. And that has also become a very, very prominent piece of work. The second edition, the first edition came in 2004 by IB Tourists in London and the second edition in 2012. And now I'm in the process of updating that book, which should be the third edition. Correct. Okay. Coming out. But then also I'm very proud of a couple of other books, which I've done recently. And one of them is Iran Rising. Yeah. The Survival and Future of the Islamic Republic. And that was published over Prince University Press in the 2021 and also How to Lose a War, the story of America's intervention in Afghanistan, which was published by Yale University Press in 2024.
Speaker 2 00:04:18 And we're very familiar with that book because you actually kindly launched it at this university in our city tower later that that year.
Speaker 3 00:04:26 Yes. And I was very grateful to you and also the chancellor Yeah. For launching at that book.
Speaker 2 00:04:31 Yeah. So in like the really interesting theme, and it isn't that long ago,
Speaker 3 00:04:36 It wasn't that long ago, that's a very current book, but of course so much has happened since even that book.
Speaker 2 00:04:42 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:04:42 So true. And one of the problems with the covering international affairs is that that things shift very quickly. They do. And therefore to keep up on the top of the subjects, that in itself is a real challenge.
Speaker 2 00:04:53 So let me ask you, as a person who is so interested in world affairs and global movements of change, how do you reconcile the que the question of history and learning from it long term and those very rapid movements?
Speaker 3 00:05:08 I'm an ENT student of history. I always make sure that I put the current situation in historical context without history. I don't think we will be really understand the complexities of a current situation or for that matter, really predict the future in any sense. Mm. And for that matter, I always make sure that my books have a, a coverage of the historical settings because without really understanding the historical complexities of the situa of the region that I cover, it is extremely difficult for the audience to actually understand the current situation against the backdrop of what's really happening.
Speaker 2 00:05:50 It is a, a denominating feature of your works. And I've been privileged to read most of them that history is treated as with, with equal seriousness. Because in the international relations community, others focus on economics or sometimes international affairs at that kind of power politics, for example. You do all that. But the historical context is so important. Is it partly because you grew up in that part of the world in Afghanistan? What leads, what led to that, that love? Well,
Speaker 3 00:06:14 I think it's partly that, and also because of the education that acquired in Australia. I did my first year at the University Western in Australia. And my completed my BA at a U and of course my PhD. And I was always very fond of history, even when I was in school, in high school, I really liked history. That was one of my favorite subjects. And also to really understand the background where I was born, I mean also the region of Afghanistan. And then you really had to delve into history in order to understand what had really shaped and guided the development in those in that country and also in this region. And for that matter, history is so important to me. I think some people would like to just focus on the current tissues, but then again, the people who really listen to you, they may raise a lot of questions. So where these, the current situation is come from. And therefore, I think it is very, it, it's is imperative that we delve into historical background and sometimes perhaps not so deep. I mean, I, my coverage is more, more of modern history. Yeah. Rather than ancient history. But when I did my first year, I did two units in the University of Western Australia. One was history one, two, which basically covered the history of colonial period. And the other one is the medieval Europe.
Speaker 2 00:07:36 Oh, medieval. Okay. Medieval Europe.
Speaker 3 00:07:37 And, and I was, and that also really excited me to take a lot of interest. I
Speaker 2 00:07:43 Can understand. Now, let me just ask, when you mentioned that you enjoyed it in school, can you describe, 'cause the listeners are imagining us sitting here discussing this, but what was your school like? Where was it and what did it feel like?
Speaker 3 00:07:55 Well, my primary school was in a very shabby port of Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. And it was, the emphasis was very much on the mathematics and history as well as geography. Yeah. That, that's where the main coverage, it was basically mud built school. Yeah. And in terms of its infrastructure, quite really primitive. But the emphasis was very much on acquiring knowledge. And we had some of the very good teachers. But I did my high school a a and a little more improved infrastructure. But we, we had some really very good teachers. I mean, I remember for example, my mathematics teacher and also that's where I started doing English. Ah. 'cause I had no English before that. And so we had three hours a week of English and basically learning the grammar. And by the time I was in year 10, there was a set of a scholarship, which was called the American Field Service Scholarships.
Speaker 3 00:09:07 And so all the top students from the universities across Afghanistan were invited to sit for a first an English test. And then after that, a general knowledge test. And then we were interviewed at the American information ser service by three panel of American Americans diplomats. And then out of something like initially I think there was 180 people set for the exam. And then it was brought down to about 80, and then 32 and out of the 32 14 of us were selected to go to the United States, live with an American family for a year, and also do finally a high school there. Oh, okay. And, and of course, that's where, that provide me with an opportunity to also learn English and improve language. Where
Speaker 2 00:09:51 Was the school? The American one?
Speaker 3 00:09:53 Oh, the school was in a very little town called Monroe in Ohio, which was between Cincinnati and Dayton. Yeah, Ohio. Yeah. It has a population of 3000. But the school was the main industry. Yeah. Because it has something like about 1100 students. Wow. And that is the school that I attend. I attended, it was called Lemon Monroe High. And
Speaker 2 00:10:13 Have you ever, ever been back there as an
Speaker 3 00:10:15 Adult? Yes, I did go back. Yeah. I mean, when I was doing my PhD research and I went to Iran and then to Britain and then United States. And then I spent or visited at that family for a couple of nights in Ohio. And then when I, prince University Press was publishing my first book, I went and spent Christmas with them. And then in their basement, I wrote the preface for the rise and fall of the show.
Speaker 2 00:10:41 I did not know that. I think you might have told me the second part of that story once before, but in their basement. Now look at basements in that part of the world. Are qui pretty well fortified too? A
Speaker 3 00:10:50 Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And of course, they also had a, the, the, the family used to play music there as well. Yeah. But of course, for two days they didn't play any music and they left, left me alone to write the preface.
Speaker 2 00:11:03 And so, well, I remember well yes. At that same age. That young age. Yeah. 'cause I was learning to play violin at the age of about 13. Yes. And for a year my parents suffered. They put me in the basement and said, go and practice and shut the door and hoped it would be soundproof. Unfortunately, I managed to the squeaks even to be emitted, even despite the shut door. Yeah. But I, and they, they would just say, don't go anywhere near the ul, as they say in French. It's a dangerous place. Yes. You know, but So you've had this experience, so education. Yes. Right. From an early age. You, you loved learning, you really loved it sounds like. Did you get that from your parents? Where did it come from? What do you think?
Speaker 3 00:11:43 My, my mother was iterate. She could not read and write. Yeah. And my father had only done up to the third year primary school. Yeah. But of course he was self-taught. Yeah. A person. And he was also a poet and an artist, a painter. But he worked with the government press in Afghanistan. And he was, that eventually the director of the, a particular area of that government press, which you called the Ziko graphic a area. But then he sort of retired. And during my school holidays when I was in primary school, I used to go and spend some time with him in his place. And of course, that also made me take a lot of interest in printing and newspapers. And my father always really came with a home from work with three major newspapers. And we sort of, you know, laid it out. And when I was in primary school, and particularly in high school, we used to read in the newspapers. And that's also what interested me in world affairs. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:49 And really, that's a very interesting opening idea, isn't it? Because you've ended up on being on the front page of a few newspapers yourself. Yeah. When was the last time you were on the front page of a newspaper and which one was it?
Speaker 3 00:12:59 Well, I mean, I've been publishing, I think one of my colleagues at a u had looked up my record of publication of Festiv and K rang me up and said, oh my God, there's 1,400 entries there that you've published. These are just ed pieces. Yeah. And they do not really include the books and the book chapters and journal articles and so on that you've written.
Speaker 2 00:13:27 So 1,400 op-eds. Yeah. Have you ever been covered on the front page for news?
Speaker 3 00:13:32 For the news? I, for a short time when I was in Afghani, I came back from the United States and I spent another couple of years in Afghanistan before I got a scholarship and came to Australia. I worked with a newspaper called The Cobble Times, and I was doing that part-time, and then I became a sort of a reporter. Yeah. And so couple of my reports were published in front page of the Cobble Times. Wow. And, but of course the cobble Times has been sort of no outta business. It became new couple times when the communists took over, and then it was basically suppressed by the Taliban when they came to power. But I think they've just revived it, but under a different name.
Speaker 2 00:14:13 Interesting. The, the history of that too. Yes. The press and the, and the printed word. Yeah. The printed word runs through the spoken word, runs through the knowledge gathering. Runs through. So let's just go back to the time when you first came to Western Australia. You did, you arrive in Perth and just directly by air or where from?
Speaker 3 00:14:32 I came by air. I flew from Kabul to Laur and then from Laur to New Delhi. Yeah. And then from New Delhi to Bangkok and from Bangkok to Perth to Perth. And I remember that when I arrived over Perth, there was an announcement that, welcome to the City of Lights and the describing Perth. And then afterwards we had these people coming with a DDT and spreading the plane, which is nice to be welcomed. And I remember that my, a sponsor from the education department by the name of Ms. Carson was waiting for me at the airport. And I came through the custom and presented my passport to the gentleman. And he looked at it and he said, oh gee, I've never really come across this sort of passport because it was an Afghan passport. Yeah. Australia did not have a consulate or embassy in Afghanistan. So it was the British Embassy, which was acting on behalf.
Speaker 3 00:15:34 And they had sort of given a stump on the passport to enable me to get into Australia. But then of course, that was not a proper visa. No. And then he called one of his friends, he said, oh, John or something come, have you seen one of these bloody things before? And the guy said, no, I haven't really, I haven't seen one of these before. And he said, oh, I think perhaps we can give him about three months a visa. And then he will have to go to education officer. Yeah. And then go to the immigration and get a student visa. And then Ms. Coon was waiting for me and I and Ms. Coon, and there was an announcement that said, I'm in cycle. I'm in cycle. Could you please come to the front desk and meet Ms. Coon? Yeah, Ms. Coon. And I did miss, I met Ms.
Speaker 3 00:16:15 Coon, she was a wonderful lady. And she said, are you hungry? And I said, oh, well, something that I ate was something like seven hours ago or something. Yeah. I might be sorry. So we went there, there was a little cafe at the time, this is in early 1970s, and had the, so what would you like to have? I can't remember whether I had fish and chips or steak and chips or anything. Yeah. But Ms. Coon keep gobbling it down without asking me any questions. And I thought to myself, well, you've arrived in a new country and probably the custom here is that you asked the host, how is the food? And I said, Ms. Cosson, how is the food? He said, bloody lousy. I knew, I knew the word bloody, but not lousy. No, that's right. Not very strong now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:02 And, and so you heard lousy and you thought, what has she said?
Speaker 3 00:17:05 Oh, what she said. And, and, and then of course we got into taxis. She was taking me to a college, and it was quite late at night. And so we came across of this huge building and I said, what's that? The huge building? She said, it's a brewery building. Oh yes, yes. Yeah. Per brewery Swan or something. Oh, swan. So Swan Brewery bed. Yeah. And I said, oh, great. Well, and then there was a bridge and I said, what's the name of the bridge? She said, Swan Bridge. And then we went further and there, there was a tower. And I said, what's the tower? She says, Swan TV tower. And then we prefer that. And there was river. And I said, what's the name of the river? Swan River? And I, I didn't know what was swan. And, and then I, I asked Ms. S, I said, what's Swan? Before she could answer, the driver answered. Yeah. Yeah. I said, it's a bloody flying bird, not walking bird. And I turned my face to my cousin. I said, what's the difference? She said, oh, actually you also refer to woman here, bird. And I said, oh, that's wrong. And
Speaker 2 00:18:08 I get it,
Speaker 3 00:18:09 I get it. That's wrong. But,
Speaker 2 00:18:10 But also things using that name. But of course,
Speaker 3 00:18:12 But these are early, this is, I'm talking about early 1970s.
Speaker 2 00:18:15 Yeah, I get it. And luckily it wasn't called Swan University, but University of Western Australia. So
Speaker 3 00:18:20 That was University of, and then I was University Western in Australia. I did my first year. I was a lot of good experience. Then the courses that I wanted to do, the units were not sort of available there so much. So I decided to come to the a u Yeah. And then finish off my ba there.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 And so Interesting. The kind of intention and the moment, the moment you arrived. Yeah. You put your first, first foot Yes. On Australian soul. How did it feel? Did you feel deed away from home or was it just an adventure?
Speaker 3 00:18:50 Well, since I had already spent a year in the United States, yeah. So I was really quite familiar. Yeah. Sort of. I didn't have very high expectations. I knew that Australia was a fairly developed country because I didn't know much about Australia before, shortly before I left Afghanistan, because I remember that I was in the editorial office of the Kabul Times, and I was doing sort of a part-time work there that this gentleman with a long hair, very happy, walked in. And he said, I would like to have a meeting with your editor. And I said, have you made an appointment? He said, no. And I said, I said, what, what would you like to do? He said, I've been tracking from Katmandu to Kabul and from Kabul, I'm going to go to Western Europe, and I have some very interesting stories to write about. And of course, he also was in need of cash. And I told him that, look, I'm very sorry. The the editor is not here and you have not made an appointment. And he said, oh, bagger. And walked out. And I didn't know what was bugger.
Speaker 2 00:20:01 What was that either?
Speaker 3 00:20:02 So I opened my Persian English dictionary, English Persian dictionary and tried to see what bagger, and I couldn't find it. You couldn't. And then, and then I was dealing with a third secretary of the British Embassy about my scholarship to Australia when by the name of Jonathan Randall. And I rang up Jonathan. I said, Jonathan, could you please tell me what's bugger? And she, he explained it to me. He said, you know, just me forget it. You know that he said an old time that they used. And that made me take interest in Australia because at the, at the same time, I had been offered two other scholarships. Ah, one to East West Center. Yeah, yeah. University of Hawaii. Hawaii, yeah. And another one to American University in Beirut. Ah. And, and, and I said, gee, Australia looks, sounds very interesting. And I started reading about it, and then I discovered that Australia had 12 million population, but 120 million sheep.
Speaker 2 00:20:55 Yeah. Well that ratio is pretty
Speaker 3 00:20:58 Incredible. And I, and I said, look, this is the country that I want to really go. And it's sometime, so finally I took up the Colombo Scholarship come, came to
Speaker 2 00:21:06 Australia. But you have this curiosity and this sense of Jo de vivo throughout all of what you've done, you know, the way you just describing. It's so engaging. And I just can imagine you telling, you know, first year classes and others 'cause because despite all of your amazing work of research, which you've described, and you know, you've written all the books that we've mentioned, bestsellers, commentating on the BBCA, B-C-C-N-N-S-B-S, you name it, you've done it. But when you sit down with first year students or any level of students, they're enthralled. That's the gift. You have the gift.
Speaker 3 00:21:37 Well, I hope so. This is not what exactly my children will tell me for, for them. I'm just a father. Yeah. And you know, they, they can easily put you down. But that's of course the function of
Speaker 2 00:21:54 Children. Well, let's put it this way, parenthood is not the same as professorial work. That's that's right. You know, let's be honest. You know, you're
Speaker 3 00:21:58 Absolutely right.
Speaker 2 00:21:59 You know, and even though we often take it home Yes. It's still different. Yes. 'cause that's the situation. So let's just imagine the A NU because we both know it. Well, I, as, as a, a young person, probably not far different from your age, went there first went, you know, off the plane when I arrived as well. And I thought I'd made a terrible mistake because I arrived, you know, when it was 41 degrees on Valentine's Day. And I'd come from a minus 23 degree day in Canada. So it was like, you know, you know, 70 degree variation. I was just blown away by the heat and blown away by the flies. And I remember that the plane arrived and they kind of dragged all the, the luggage over by hand, you know, and just dropped it like as, as it was a trailer on the ground and said, go for your life. And I looked and said, I speak English, but I do not understand what that person just said.
Speaker 3 00:22:46 That's
Speaker 2 00:22:47 True. You know, is there a danger? I said, is there a danger somewhere? Do we have to escape? Yes. You know? And this is a bit like you with the bugger. Yes. I was in the same situation. Everyone's laughing and saying, look at the foreigner. You know? Yes. So it doesn't mean that just because you come from an English speaking background, you understand Australian Yes. Orrin as it used to be called. Yes. Yeah. The accent and the dialogue is pretty challenging.
Speaker 3 00:23:08 Oh, yes. I mean, you, the dialect was very challenging. And I remember that when I was, when I first arrived in Perth and I was in this, they placed me in this college and this blind guy came, sat across from me at breakfast and said, who's there? And I said, Amin. And he said, I'm kin. And he said, and he said, what are you doing, Amin? I said, oh, I'm doing history and anthropology and another unit. And he, and I said, what are you doing? He said, oh, I'm doing economics. And couple of other units. And he, he said, ha, have you done much work? And I said, no, I'm sorry. I haven't done much work. I have just arrived. And he said, well, you better pull your socks out. And I sort of tried to look at my socks and I said, and then I realized that he's blind, he can't see. Oh. So he said, oh, and of course this,
Speaker 2 00:24:04 It was the expression again,
Speaker 3 00:24:05 Expression and that sort of thing, expression. But but of course after a while
Speaker 2 00:24:09 You catch up. You, you do get it. Yeah. You do get it. And I think the truth of the matter is that when you look at it, and we'll talk about the a NU experience, once you acclimatize Yes. You thrive, you acclimatized rather quickly. And I think most people try, but not everyone does. Yeah. And it seems to me that this bicultural, tri, cultural, whatever way you wanna look at it, you've had the ability to morph into a new space better than just about anyone I know. So when did you feel, when you went to Canberra? 'cause it was early days at the A NU. Yeah. When did you feel at home?
Speaker 3 00:24:39 Well, I mean, as soon as I arrived there, I mean, they had my scholarship, people had placed me in a college called John the 23rd. But in, in part, I was in a college which called No, was beca, it was San Colombo College, then it's now become Trinity College. Yes. And the head of the college was Reverend Robinson. Yeah. He was a lovely man. And he, I told him that I'm going to go to the A NU. And he said, where are you going to stay? I said, my scholarship people has placed me Jonathan 23rd. He said, no, no, no, no, no. You better not go there. Go to Bruce Hall. Bruce Hall is the best college. And, and, and, and when I arrived at the airport, I told the taxi driver, Camberra airport, take me to Bruce Hall. Yeah. So he drove me, Bruce Hall. And of course I hadn't enrolled there.
Speaker 3 00:25:25 No. And I went and saw the warden. I remember his secretary. Yeah. The secretary said, have you made an appointment? I said, no, I haven't. And he said, she said, well, he's very busy, but his door was open. And I heard his voice. He say, it's okay. Let him in. Let him in. And I walked and I walked in and there was Bell Packard. Ah, yeah. It was the warden of Hall. And of course he was a Rhode Scholar. Yeah. He'd been trained in Oxford. He, she was shaping Bruce Hall, sort of an image of one of the Oxford colleges. And I sat down there and he said, what can I do for you? I said, I need a room. He said, have you haven't applied for? I said, no, I'm sorry, I haven't applied for place here. And he pulled this, this list from his drawer, and there was a hundred fee, 150 people on the waiting list. Yeah. He said, I don't have a single room. I said, Mr. Packard, how many foreign students you have? And Bruce Hall, how many students? Altogether? You said, oh, something like 220. I said, how many foreign students? He said, oh, we've got one from Malaysia and one from India, one from the, about three or three. And I said, I think you, I, I think your whole needs a bit more color. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:26:44 And he looked at me and he said, you've got a sense of humor. And then he, he said, where have you come from? I said, well, I've originally come from Afghanistan. I said, have you ever had a student from Afghanistan? And he said, no, I haven't. I said, this is your opportunity. And he looked and he looked at me and he said, or I don't have a room, but I've got a room and a workers' quarter. Ah, I will give you the key. Yeah. Go and have a look at that. Yes. See if it's, it's okay. Yeah. You can stay for the first semester there. And then on the second semester I'll shift you to one of the proper rooms. Right. And I went and looked at the place. It was okay. Except that the wardrobe was not built in. It was standing there. Yeah. And, but it was a little bit shabby. And I came back, I said, it's fine.
Speaker 2 00:27:30 But you were used to shabby. That was your high school.
Speaker 3 00:27:32 Exactly. Exactly. And I said, that's fine. And so that's how then I ended up in Bruce Hall.
Speaker 2 00:27:37 How fascinating. You see, I love the way that you tell stories and evoke the past. It's a very recent past, but it's also for those who can't imagine Canberra and A was built on having these onsite residences. Yeah. And of course I was in immense failure because I did live in John the 23rd college. 'cause all the international students on scholarship were told to go there. I loved it actually. Yes. But I didn't know any better. Yeah. Nor did I know Bill. But, but in, in any case, getting back to working there, because of course you then were doing postgraduate work. Yes. And it becomes, it becomes something more than it had originally been. 'cause when you came, everyone always has to have an idea about what postgraduate work will be and what you're gonna do. First you had to be an undergrad and finish. Yes. So how did you do that?
Speaker 3 00:28:19 Well, I finished my undergraduate degree, but I didn't do honors. And, but I was very much interested in doing honors. And I talked to some people at the university and they told me that, no, you are not qualified to do honors now. But there is another scheme, and that's called qualifying masters. Perhaps you can enroll in that because you've done, in your third year, you've done really well. You've got straight distinctions. And I think you can enroll in qualifying masters. And I enrolled in that. And then you had to achieve a two A level. Yeah. Or first class level before they could consider you for admission to PhD. So I did my fourth year qualifying masters. Yeah. And I did my thesis on Islamic socialism, the case of Libya. Wow. It was called a Islamia. Yeah. And it was quite theoretical. And the examiners were quite impressed.
Speaker 3 00:29:25 And then they told me that I had achieved the level of first course honors. Fantastic. And then they first, I enrolled in master's program and I was working on tour of modernization. And my super, one of my supervisors told me that, look, I think this is very interesting. Can you have a case study? And I said, the case study could be the white revolution in Iran under the Shah. And they said, could you write a 3000 word paper so that we can have a look at No, I'm sorry, not 3000. Actually, it was something like about 15,000 words paper. Wow. Wow. And I did, I wrote that. And they looked at it and they said, look, I think it's very important that we upgrade you to PhD. Wow. Wow. And then, wow. That's how I ended up doing my PhD on Iran. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:30:12 Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 00:30:13 Which was basically the e evolution of a state from position of dependence to interdependence, to dependence. Yeah. And the case of Iran from 1941 to 1979.
Speaker 2 00:30:28 Yeah. And this links back Yes. To when we said your favorite book. Yes. Because that's right. The gestation thereof. That's right. Was that moment that that's right. That moment. And you see, this is what we wanna say as people who love universities and work at universities, the unleashing of latent talent is what we're about. Yes. And all of those people, even to the extent of the teachers that you had in Afghanistan. Yeah. Even to the extent of the family Yeah. In the states. Even to the extent of Bill Packard as a warden. Yes. Even the extent of that supervisor saw the latent talent in you and how wonderful that it was unleashed. So when you finished, and I, I understand you sort of went straight into it. Yeah. How did it go from finishing the PhD to actually then to talking about the, as a book?
Speaker 3 00:31:14 Well, it's all a, a, a bit of luck,
Speaker 3 00:31:18 A bit of chance, and a bit of a stamina on my part. On my part. And I, I, I remembered that there was no academic opening at the time. And of course there are some really good people at the A NU who were very, very helpful. And I'm very, very thankful to them. I cannot really mention their names. There's quite a number of them. Mm. But there was it, I mean, the head of the Department of Political Science professor Jim Richardson, was very helpful in terms of introducing me to some academics in the United States. And finally one academic who said that he was very much interested in the work that I was doing. And a thesis that I had written was Ard Lewis, who was one of the leading global scholars on the Middle East. Yeah. And although very sympathetic to Israel, and perhaps some of his writings were not liked by particularly the Arab and the Arab world and the Muslim world and so on.
Speaker 3 00:32:23 And he said that he was very much interested in the work that I, that the, the thesis that I had written. So they invited me as a visiting fellow to Princeton University. And I went, so I took my chances and sort of got a plane ticket, went to San Francisco, and then waited there to get a cheap flight and flew to New York and then from New York bus to Princeton. Yeah. And I, they accommodated me for the first three nights in a little hotel, which was called Peacock Inn, which was, had been operating as a hotel since 2019 12. And that's where Barton Russell and Albert Albert Stein and so on, had a state and their, their names are on the doors. And that's where they stayed. I stayed in an ordinary room. They had You weren't in the workers' quarters again. Right. Not Workers' Quarter, but when I was ordinary rooms and department of near recent studies at Prince University had booked me in there for just for three nights.
Speaker 3 00:33:31 Oh. And also, and my bank account, I had only $420. Wow. Wow. But I was very, very lucky that one of the professors at the recent studies department said, what have you done with your thesis? I said, it is under consideration Byrum Helm. Yes. And they are looking for a part American partner. Yeah. And they said, why don't you give it to Mary to Prince University Press? Yeah. And I said, well, prince University Press, that's very big. Why would they really have a thing? And he said, what, what are you going to lose? Have you got a copy of it? I said, yes. So I hung up one of the editors and Prince Prince University press by the name of Margaret Case. And I said, Ms. Case, I've got this manuscript, can I bring it across to you to have a look at? She, she said, yeah, you're most welcome to bring it.
Speaker 3 00:34:21 But let me tell you that normally we take about eight months to review Um-huh. The manuscript and to send it out to readers. And you know, it's a long process. And I said, that's okay. So it was about four o'clock in the afternoon. This is in December at the, I rushed to the Prince University Press and the lady was in the foyer and I gave it to her and she said, look, it's going to take us a long time. We come back to you. Yeah. She came back, I was in the office 24 hours later, she rang me up. She said, would you like to really come to the press and to, to meet the director of the press? Wow. I said, that's amazing. So I went, I had two legs and I borrowed another two and run right across. And of course I had no experience.
Speaker 3 00:35:07 I had this. And she said, look, I've started reading your manuscript seven o'clock last night. Mm. And I couldn't put it down until eight o'clock this morning. Wow. What a thing. I loved it. Mm. I loved it. I want you to meet Herb Bailey, the director of the press. Wow. And I went, and her Billy said, I don't know anything about the manuscript, but Margaret loves it. Yeah. So we would like to send it out to readers. Hmm. And also we have the board of the press to look at it. And I say, and Professor Gilbin was the chair of the board of the press. And I said, okay. He said, it's going to take us a while. We come back to you very soon. And within a week they came back to me and said, would you like to come to the press and signed a contract?
Speaker 3 00:35:57 Gosh. And I said, my God. I mean I run there and here was you ran again. And I ran again. And there was a contract. I was sort of, but of course I didn't know much about the contract and the details of the contract and royalties. They said five 10% for the first 5,000 copies. Yeah. 12 and half percent for a second. 5,000 copies and 15% on any copy thereafter. Yes. And also $2,000 advance. Oh, the advance. Yes. I mean, that was the most important thing. I mean, I didn't have much money and I wasn't able to cover myself. Yeah. And, but then I thought to myself, well, they must have sort of hot potato in their hands. I mean that they were very keen, perhaps I should say that I would like to take this contract with me and have a look at it and so on. But of course, I didn't have a lawyer or anybody to look at it. And I didn't know much about the legal side of it.
Speaker 2 00:36:51 So, I mean, what happened after you left and were considering your
Speaker 3 00:36:54 Contract? I took the contract with me and because I didn't know about the legal side of it, and I thought that I need some legal advice. And I admitted this gentleman by the name of Norman Ray who in the Peacock Inn in the hotel, and we'd become sort of friend. And I didn't know who to call to say that I've got this contact. So Norman had given me his card and I rang him up. Yeah. And Norman said, oh, that sounds fantastic. Prince University Press going to publish a book. Just stay there. I'll call my lawyer in New York and he will call you straight away. So 15 minutes later, his new lawyer called me from New York and said, just tell me the main items of the contract. He said, tell me the royalty rate. And I gave, she said, that's fantastic. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:37:49 Advance, I said, 2000. He said, I'll jack up. I will, I'll raise that to 3000 Oh and certify. And the rest of it is, is very standard. Wow. And sort. Wow. So I went the next day and I said, look, I the director of the press, I would like to, oh, I went there to sign the contract. Mm. And they had already brought in a bottle of champagne. Oh. And of course I don't, Dr. I I don't didn't drink. Yeah. And but, but then they ordered some orange juice, you know, sort of come in and I said, look Mr. Bilio, I would like to raise the advance to 3000. He said, no problem. He'd already written a check of 2000. Yeah. He, to it up. And he wrote $3,000 US dollars. It was quite a bit of of money. And then they, that press threw is way behind it. And they invited me as a fellow of the press for one month. Ah-huh. And they provided me a stipend of $50 a day and also free accommodation. So
Speaker 2 00:38:52 Working on this.
Speaker 3 00:38:52 Working on this. Yeah. And the book, they brought it out within three months.
Speaker 2 00:38:57 Wow. So listen, it
Speaker 3 00:38:58 Was a record.
Speaker 2 00:38:59 It's amazing. Right. It was a record time. So I mean, just imagining this because it's kind of a metaphor for opportunity seized that could have been foregone or walked past. Yeah. You might have run more slowly. Absolutely. You might not have thought of putting it quite the way you did. You might not have had that reader read it for the night. Yes, indeed. All those things came through. But I don't believe it's just luck. You said good fortune and luck before. I think it is those who have the talent and pursue with a kind of energetic alacrity, which is you in your career everywhere all the time. But also a beautiful sense of the written word. Because don't forget what she said, I couldn't put it down. That's right. And that's what you're, in an equivalent sense, I remember your evaluations in teaching were always like that too. They couldn't stop listening or stop hearing. So what we're saying in academia is when people are like that and can engage the world, that's what universities are about. And you enumerate and live it and inculcate others with the thi with the theory of it. And we thank you for
Speaker 3 00:40:00 It. And it's very kind of you to describe it that way.
Speaker 2 00:40:03 And so it's, so there's a pattern. And so every time there's a book launch, so we come through the career and we'll just imagine a few other key po points and moments because you know, given the, the trajectory, it's very much a story of creation at an institution at the Australian National University. So at a given point, you ended up on the staff there and something happened. Was it another one of those moments?
Speaker 3 00:40:25 Yes. It was the difficult moment in the sense that there was a bit of a conflict between the department's view and the head of the department's view about who should be appointed. And I was not the first choice. Of course, this was a position which was vacated by Professor Arthur Stockman, who was a Japan specialist. And they wanted to really appoint a Japan specialist, but they couldn't really agree on a Japan specialist. And they appointed me for one year. And then the position was advertised on long-term basis. And there were four of us, the on short on on the short list, but I think it boiled down between two of us. And then the head of the department had gone and advised that the selection committee, that the department was behind the other person. But that was not really the case. That department was split seven to three.
Speaker 3 00:41:36 Oh. In terms of their vote. And then I think one of the members of the staff went and saw the dean and told the dean the exact story. But of course the other candidate had been told that the position she's been, or the person has been recommended Yes. Yes. To, to be appointed to the position. And that person had lodged racial discrimination. Oh no act. Oh. And so Professor Carmel at the time was vice chancellor of the university and that had to be investigated and took about three months. So there was real delay. And then finally the, the decision was made. And of course they incorporated, they expanded the selection committee and they incorporated Professor Tony Lowe, who was the previous vice chancellor and also Professor Harry Rigby, who was, happened to be referee for me and for the other candidate. And then the committee recommended me and that's how I was appointed. Yeah. To lectureship.
Speaker 2 00:42:46 And I'm sure the other person had a great career too. You know what I mean? That's the point. Oh
Speaker 3 00:42:49 Yes, yes. Abso absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:42:50 Absolutely. And that's the important point to mention. Yeah, absolutely. And so if we fast forward it a bit, yes. You can imagine each one of these steps. Imagine how your parents must have felt. Yes. Imagine how other members of your extended family must have felt. And also what you created in a new country. I just put it to you that the kind of creation that Australia has provided, but also the creation that you've provided with it has been phenomenally good for many people who've migrated here and have been fortunate enough to become academics. And the idea that international students are a category of student. No, they're human beings with immense amounts of reserve and talent. So as it went, I think that all the way through, whether it's politics or international relations, and as it went, you were bowling up to use that term ideas, which they had not seen before. And that's what I certainly noticed as well. Well,
Speaker 3 00:43:38 I'm very thankful to the opportunities that Australia provided me. And of course what I did in terms of my under graduate education, postgraduate education, and also many years of my career as an academic. My family had no idea what I was doing. But they were, they were back home and all they knew that he's gone and he's been studying. But apart from that, of course my parents were very proud that, that I'd gone, I'd got scholarship and gone abroad, but they had no idea what I was really doing until they finally, they migrated the situation developed in Afghanistan such a way that I had to sponsor them and they came to Australia and and so on. But I mean, I, I, I must really say that the opportunities which been provided to me, I mean that has been unique and, and if I didn't have those opportunities, and also I think some of the people who've been so kind and so supportive, including yourself and
Speaker 2 00:44:45 Not at all. Well look, it's, it's out of absolutely automatic on the way in. We came through what's called the doors of opportunity. Yes. Which if you think of this institution view since 1916, yes. Has been an educational institution. And I love the fact that specially designed doors, which are unlike any other in the city of Melbourne, are here for people to walk through and to pass through and to be uplifted. That is the story which you've just described. And I think it's an inspiration to all of us to imagine what depend potentiality of every single person who thinks of Australia and boards a plane could be. And you are that person. I mean, thank you for today.
Speaker 3 00:45:22 Thank you very much for inviting me and also considering me worthy of being interviewed and giving me the opportunity to see some of the things about my past and also how aware I've ended up. And I think it is been really the support of people like yourself and many others, as well as also my immediate family who have been an enormous help and a rock behind everything that I've really done up to this point.
Speaker 2 00:46:00 Understood. It's a wonderful thing. Thank you again. My
Speaker 3 00:46:03 Pleasure. Thank you.
