Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the rung wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Hello, colleagues, and welcome to the People of Vu podcast. We are so privileged to be here and kj Karen Jackson. A deep thanks to you for your acknowledgement of country. It is such a special time and place to hear your words, especially just about a week after the treaty legislation has passed. Parliament, it could not be more important for all of us. And I want to acknowledge and pay my deepest respects to ancestors, elders, and families of of the traditional owners on all of our campuses, be they here in Melbourne or in Sydney or elsewhere. So here we are talking about the world and the place, and we're with a very special guest, Ashwin Damara. And Ashwin is a, not only an entrepreneur and an innovator, an educator, but co-founder and CEO of emeritus, a global EdTech company. But most importantly, he's part of the people of VU podcast because we are working with Ashwin and all of his colleagues to create a Vu India presence near Delhi. And it's something which has been arriving in the most amazing way. You'll hear about that in today's podcast. Ashwin, welcome.
Speaker 3 00:02:25 Thank you, Adam. You've been so warm, and as if all of your colleagues. So I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
Speaker 2 00:02:31 You could not, I couldn't echo it more. And so I'd love to hear more about you because everyone who's listening to this will want to know who is Ashwin and where did you come from? So where were you born?
Speaker 3 00:02:41 So I was born in a city that was called Madras when I was born, but it's called Chennai today. Yeah, it's a small town in the southern part of India. They speak Tam there, but my mother tongue is telegu. I am married to a lovely lady whose mother tongue is marati mati. And so I often say I know a little bit of Tamil Mati and telegu, but I'm probably best in English. But you probably will find my English wanting No,
Speaker 2 00:03:06 No, I, I would never suggest such a thing. But I mean, would you say you're trilingual or three or two and a half? What do you think? Two
Speaker 3 00:03:12 And a half would be the best way to put
Speaker 2 00:03:13 It. Two and a half. That's great. So I'm about 1.75 with French and English, but English is my native tongue. But of course, interestingly, we talked about this this morning 'cause when we do graduation ceremonies here at vu, we often ask how many languages do the people in the audience speak? And sometimes we get up to six. Wow. In fact, mostly at least three quarters of the people who are present speak at three or more. Wow. So it just tells you, you know, the kind of area we're in in the west of Melbourne is a bit like where you're from, trilingual, which is just great. So I think that's a good basis for our comparison and, and talking today. So after that early stage though, did, where did you go to school?
Speaker 3 00:03:48 So I studied in Chennai in a school called the Krishna Moti Foundation School. It's just called the School. The School. And what was very nice about it is, so Kush moti, I don't dunno if you know Judy Kush. Moti was a philosopher. He was actually taught by Dr. Annie Besant. Oh. Who kind of had a deep ideological moment linked more to the Montessori school. Yeah. But in our school, we didn't have any exams till eighth grade. We didn't have school uniforms. We never called a teacher, sir or madame. We in Thermal said AKA really meant sister and brother. Yeah. So it was very, very warm, friendly, welcoming. You didn't, since you didn't have exams, everybody was promoted. Mm. Because it was the duty of the teacher and the school to make sure that people learned and went forward and advance. And there was no negative punitive thing that hey, you would fail. And of course, after eighth grade, because you had the standardized board exam boards, you had exams. So it was a wonderful learning environment, a very safe environment. And Adam, to some extent, I feel my appreciation of what high quality learning is, is shaped by my early childhood experiences in that very school.
Speaker 2 00:04:49 I'm not surprised. And let me disclose too, that my mom was a Montessori school headmistress or principal, if you like, in, in that case of two schools in London. And I used to visit a lot that age group of school, you know, Miriam Montessori's, method of inclusion, and you know, speaking up and hearing people's voices. And she had, you know, the seven year olds speaking to me as if we were just together, together, get together, exploring, you know. And my partner came and did a photographic essay in the school of following a bit like a, a day in the life of, you know, I loved it because all the students were part of that story equally. And she was behind the lens and they were all in front of it. It was just a great thing. So I, I can understand the atmosphere that you're mentioning. So did you have a favorite teacher?
Speaker 3 00:05:37 Yes, one of my favorite teachers was my English teacher. And you know, she taught us Shakespeare. And you know, English for somebody growing up in South India was okay. But Shakespeare was a different level of, okay, but we gotta love the text because the way she taught it, not so much of how Shakespeare was written, but the way in which she taught that. And so, yes, did have a favorite teacher for sure. And,
Speaker 2 00:06:00 And you know, something wonderful about Shakespeare that the more you get into Shakespeare, the more it becomes valuable, whether it's poetry or plays. And I remember I did, I think I did 18 Shakespeare plays in one year at, this is at Queen University in Ontario. And it was like, we had just done one. We were at, actually, everyone in the class was acting in one at the same time as well. So it became alive, participatory, you know, real. And it sounds like that's what your schooling was like too.
Speaker 3 00:06:29 It was. And that's kind of what made it stake. And you know, interestingly, after I finished my 10th grade, I shifted to a different school in Chennai, which was more the tried and tested Indian schooling system, rote learning. And then Adam, I truly appreciate how good my earlier school was. And that's somewhat like life's experiences are, isn't it? Yeah. Till you have a bad experience, you don't really understand how good your good experiences were. So for me at least kind of, it led me to understand quite distinctly what's the good part of education. Yeah. And maybe what's the not so good way in which education can be delivered?
Speaker 2 00:07:02 I understand too. And and English is not just English, there are many Englishes,
Speaker 3 00:07:06 Well, there's also Indian version of English, which we say is English. English. And you probably experienced some of that because a lot of Indians here in Melbourne. So yeah, there are many, yeah, there are many forms of English.
Speaker 2 00:07:16 And of course we're getting used to Australian English as we speak. And there's Aboriginal English, or indigenous English as well. So as I say, everywhere we go it's morphed and changed and metamorphos. It's really interesting. So tell me then, after that, what was next, you know, in your studies?
Speaker 3 00:07:32 I wish I knew actually. And very interestingly, I have an elder brother Yeah. Who was studying to become an engineer and he had all of these fat books. And so one thing I knew I didn't wanna become, because of seeing my elder brother was I didn't wanna become an engineer, but I really didn't know. And I suppose it's through many people in that age, which is, you know, I thought I had aspiration of being a music director, a filmmaker, no talent at all. No. But I didn't know that either. And what my parents told me, which was, by the way, at that time, I hated that advice. But in hindsight, it was the best advice. And my mom especially said, look, whatever you do, go finish your education, great. Go get a go, get the best college degree that you can, and then you can do whatever you want. Yeah. And it was, it didn't, it wasn't what I wanted to hear at that point of time. So I went and did my charter accountancy worked for a few years, and then, then my MBA, and by that time all of that happened, my notions of being a filmmaker or a music director had banished. But I would say that that is probably the right career path for me.
Speaker 2 00:08:30 Don't worry, the filmmaking is still in your future. We can feel it now. So it'll just be a different topic. Right. You know, I can just see educational experimentation, the great topic. So MBA, where did you do your MBA
Speaker 3 00:08:41 Harvard Business School. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:08:42 I was pretty sure. So tell me, what was it like culturally, not just the content?
Speaker 3 00:08:46 Well, you know, I think Harvard, many people say it's, it's a tough place to be. The first few weeks I used to wonder, hey, was that an admission mistake? And are they're gonna tell me, Hey, sorry, we got the wrong person and you need to go back. But after that, what I realized, Adam, it's very interesting, right? Is that I was as smart as the others in the classroom. Of course we had very different experiences and backgrounds. And to me, what Harvard gave me beyond just the things that I learned were two very important things. One was the confidence that I could actually do big things in life. Yeah. The, it made me dream of things. You know, I often say this that very often human beings, we are limited by the scale and magnitude of our own ambitions. And Harvard allowed me to dream because in my classroom was, for example, the Samo brothers, they had built and sold their company to eBay for like a hundred million dollars.
Speaker 3 00:09:35 And again, this is 2005, 2003 to 2005. And I was like, okay, I think I'm, you know, smart enough like they are. So why couldn't I do that? Yeah. And so for me to become an entrepreneur, I think part of that was just having that confidence that if I put my mind to do something, I could perhaps do it. Yeah. So that was one. The second thing that Harvard Business School gave me was a network of people and friends that have, you know, stayed true for a lifetime. You know? Yeah. Increasingly, we live in an age where it's not just what you know, it's who you know. And many times through who you know, you can figure out what you don't know. So in my first startup, a company called Travel Guru, it was two of my own classmates who gave me my first check. Ah, great. And so the network, you know, has been used and abused many times over. Yeah. But I think those are two things that, you know, have stayed beyond just those two years. And, you know, let me make one other point, but good education is not just the two years you spend in college, it's a lifetime. Yeah. And I think that's been true in my case.
Speaker 2 00:10:29 It's so, so true. And, and just this week I had one of my school buddies come back to visit me, someone from Ottawa, you know, and he and his partner came, we had dinner and it's like yesterday, you know, so it doesn't matter how long ago it was that you graduated with the right friends, connection is immediate. And I think the great wonderful thing, it isn't just the content, it's the, everything that surrounds it is really, really powerful. And that we found that too. So do you still have a number of friends from that period? It sounds like you do. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:10:58 Abs absolutely. Including those two who invested in my first company. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:01 Well, it's nice that they invested in their still friends as well. Yes. You know, that also works. So why travel guru and not education guru?
Speaker 3 00:11:09 Ah, great question. So as part of my MBA in my second year, I had to do a couple of field studies and I was bitten by the travel bug, all these low cost airlines, all of that. And so I created a field study with a, a classmate of mine at HPS for an online travel portal in India, which didn't exist in 2005. And we just for fun, entered the business plan contest and we came runners up. Ah, it should have ended there. Yeah. But then these two friends, you know, based on just a business plan written by somebody who had no travel experience. Yeah. No startup experience, no technology experience. But they say, okay, he's a good friend. Yeah. So we'll fund him. Oh. And so I turned on and offer to join McKinsey in New York. Yeah. And came back to India to start travel guru.
Speaker 3 00:11:55 Wow. And you know, four, five years later we sold to Travelocity. Hmm. But what I realized, to answer your question of why not education guru Yeah. Was that I was doing that startup because I was wanted to start up and maybe I was chasing the outcome, which was wealth creation, not so much because I was passionate about solving a problem in travel. And so a year after I sold that, I had one year as a transition period, Adam, and I said, okay, if I wanted to spend some, the next 10 years of my life really doing something I'm passionate about, what would that be? What would that be? And for me, I think that one year was, you know, I was a, I was a little older, a little wiser, more mature. That one year also gave me the time to sift through my thoughts and figure out what I wanted to do.
Speaker 3 00:12:34 Education and healthcare were two things that really came to me. You know, growing up in a country like India, you see the contrast. I categorize India, and by the way, it's probably true of many parts of the world, but you see it very starkly in India, especially in Mumbai as you know, a place where there are oceans of poverty and then islands of prosperity. Right. And what determines if somebody is drowning in that ocean of poverty, or surviving and flourishing in this island of prosperity, is basically education. It may not even be college education. If you just went to an English medium school versus a local medium school that gives you a leg up when it comes to getting a job. Right. So that to me was very powerful. And I said, look, if there's a way in which I could give back through bringing high quality education, and if I spend the next 10, 20 years, even if I have nothing to show for this venture in terms of an outcome that's monetary, I would've spent my life doing something good.
Speaker 3 00:13:27 Right? And that led to education. I met my co-founder, TYA, who was from C who had the same, who shared the same goals and missions. And you know what, 15 years later I can look back and say, that was the best decision I made in my life. Because every day, I mean, I mean, Adam, of course I'm preaching to the choir because you do this on a scale in a magnitude that we haven't even touched. But every day when there's somebody who writes it and says, look, I took this course, it has changed my life. And sometimes even the personal, but mostly the professional lives, then you know that this mission that you embarked on was really worth, you know, spending 10, 15 years. Right. So that's how education happened. It's a place where I feel that it affords me the opportunity to learn something every time, every day in a sense. And that's, I think, you know, very valuable.
Speaker 2 00:14:11 And you know, some of the things you've said remind me a lot when you read, say biographies, you know, Mandela for example, talks a lot about education as the enliven of opportunity, you know, in all sorts of ways. You know, if you like almost teleological where things could go, where things could go in a better society. Right? So India was already a great society, but this is making it even better. So as an Indian proud, as a, as a proud Indian, what do you think are the biggest challenges now as we're talking about 2026 coming? What are the biggest ones? Well,
Speaker 3 00:14:40 If you actually are taking on that point, if you go back to India, maybe in the, let's say till the 10th century, 80. Yeah. There's probably number one or two in education. Yeah. By the way, we don't realize how fast the education landscape changes. If I go back to 1900 and say, okay, where were the top universities from? Which country were they from? Mm. It's not America. No, it's not even the uk, it was Germany. Mm. And in a hundred years, things have changed so much, and imagine the next a hundred years what the things would change. But India today is not that India. No. Right. And so we have lost a little bit of that for, for various reasons. It's a massive opportunity for education. I mean, in India we always speak about the demographic dividend. Right. 300 million Indians below the age of 25.
Speaker 3 00:15:22 Yeah. But Adam, if they don't get a good education, if the, if they don't get good jobs, if they don't get the prosperity in 30 years from now, we'll have 300 million aging people. Yeah. Without access to good healthcare and you know, who didn't have access to opportunity. So while there's a great opportunity, it is an opportunity only if they're educated and if they get that prosperity that comes via education, other things. So I think the roles that, by the way, both of us now, because we are now a VU partner, have to play, is how do we in our own small way move the needle on making sure that high quality education linked to outcomes is delivered to that population. Right. And I think that is where I would love to spend the next 10, 15 years of my life trying to make an impact
Speaker 2 00:16:05 And unleashing potentiality potential of all sorts of groups that may not have thought. You used the word confidence earlier. We find that's the number one word that people say when they talk about the VU block model. What it gives them as a new experience. They come with a very low voice after just a few weeks, they gain in stature, they gain in presence, and they gain in confidence. So in fact, I think that very thing that you described is what we're attempting to do in this system and in this model. So if you think about it when we're talking about the, the, the joint approach of what we're going to do in India, how can we best impart that confidence? You know? What do you think is the, the first, second and third step?
Speaker 3 00:16:43 Well, I think the Indian system is ripe for innovation, right? The, for various reasons. Part of it is regulation that governs Indian universities. Part of it is many of the good universities are run through a common standardized entrance exam, which is a test. So there's very, very little room for subjectivity for admissions and diversity. But it's also a system that is, and the students are very keen to learn and imbibe best practices. No surprises. If you look at India, it's today the third largest startup ecosystem in the world. Yeah. Right? And so the same thing is going to happen in higher education as well. But people like VU can lead with ideas. Right? Because again, back here in your campus, you're already innovating. You've spoken about the block model. Mm. But that has led to about a 85, 90% renewal from year one to year two versus the standard earlier that used to be say 60, 65%. That is
Speaker 2 00:17:34 Massive. It's massive. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:35 But Adam, as you know, and you were a pioneer of this, even in your early avatar, it was not easy to do. Mm. It's not easy to replicate. No. And so what India can learn is from, hey, what are the best models that countries across the world? And an example here specifically is vu. What do, what have they done? What, how can we imbibe that? I think equally, by the way, there's something that VU might learn from India. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:17:54 Absolutely. Right?
Speaker 3 00:17:55 Because it's a very different context, very vibrant. The Indians are full of potential. And you know that, you've seen that here. And what we would love through this partnership is this two-way exchange of ideas and innovation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:06 And you know, when, when this was born, and it's only been about a year now that we've been working, that's how fast this has come on. And it's so terrific. The idea of innovation has been there from day one. The idea of collaboration has been there from day one. And the idea of surprise, surprise, people said, I had no idea that.dot dot, I had no idea that you were doing what you're doing. Or that we're doing what we're doing. And so let's talk about an example. We are number seven in the world in sports science. You know, as a recognition of that we deal in a kind of flip campus way with professional sports teams. We have a very strong commitment to women in sport safety, in sport safety against violence against young people in sport. But also the idea of professionalization of the experience. Could we do those things in India with you, do you think as well? Oh,
Speaker 3 00:18:50 Absolutely. And India lacks in many of these areas. So there are a couple of organizations. So I have, I personally run a philanthropic organization called Damara Ventures. One of our themes is sports. My wife was actually a national level athlete in the 200 meters and 400 meters. And so one of the companies we support is a company called OGQ. It's called Olympic Gold Quest. Ah. And the idea is that India has actually won very few Olympic gold medals. Right. And again, we can learn a lot from Australia and other countries on that. But you know, the, their tagline actually is very interesting. And it says six grams of gold can change a nation's worth.
Speaker 2 00:19:28 Wow. Right.
Speaker 3 00:19:30 And so the kind of infrastructure, and one of the reasons, again, not that we don't have talented people, but the infrastructure around coaching, around training mental health for athletes as well. All of that. And by the way, if I come to cricket, now, this can be a contentious topic between Australia, it has to be done India. But a lot of Aussie, for example, the, you know, there's an MRF PACE foundation that's there in Chennai, which Dennis Lilly started. Yeah. A lot of our Indian coaches as well as training heads were actually Australian. Right? Because again, a lot of the sports science, rehab and all of that has come from Australia. And so there's a lot I think that we can learn from Australia. But it's also a field in India that is emerging, right? There's not many local Indian universities teaching sports science and rehab. And all of that goes with it in a practical way. It's still a little bookish. Right? So massive opportunities to do stuff, learn, leverage, and get better.
Speaker 2 00:20:21 I love it. You know, and the, the thing that we found too, and I made words this morning, these are not scientific, but the term prehab as opposed to rehab is what's behind in a sense. Having our research building at this new Footscray hospital, which is literally 70 meters behind us across the road. In other words, public health, preventative health, things like obsessing about being really great to prevent people from coming to a hospital, but having research in the hospital. So to do so, I think that's a perhaps a challenge for us that we could even try to emulate in India too. And
Speaker 3 00:20:53 Think about the opportunity for something like that. Like I was mentioning earlier, over lunches, India is the diabetes capital of the world. As you have an aging population, we are gonna have more people with dementia and other, you know, Alzheimer's and other diseases. Many of them by the way, lifestyle. And so the ability to do research specific to that population, specific to the lifestyle of that population. So they may be need, there may need to be some modifications in the kind, the kind of research that's done, but the impact on people's life. And you know, I think this is what a university is. Yeah. It's not just about the impact on a student's life, it's broader. It's the community. And you talk a lot about this. I would love to hear from you on that, but that opportunity is clearly available to VU in India today and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 00:21:33 We can't wait. And I think that's why people are so eager to start. They really wanna see the impact. Now if we look at it, we have, if the past always thought of universities as kind of credential producers, but we're now talking about opportunity producers and impact producers and society influencers. Is that same dialogue happening in India?
Speaker 3 00:21:52 It is. In fact, you know, there is this whole question about how important is a degree, and I would still say in India, the mindset has to change quite significantly. Also, the supply side equation has to change. You know, I was, I can point to, for example, the school system in India and the typical Indian school, which are either the state board or the central board is a little more, I would say, rote learning. Ah. And so less, I would say practical. Whereas the international boards come with a very different curriculum and no surprises. Even though they're more expensive, the international board is the fastest growing school segment in India. Yeah. Right. So I think if we can link outcomes, whether it's learning outcomes, career outcomes, society measures, or outcomes on society to our education, it'll help move the shift from just looking at this degree as a piece of paper. And it's a qualification to actually, hey, what have you learned? How can you apply it? How you change the world? So I, but that shift has to happen. I think it's starting to,
Speaker 2 00:22:47 Oh, well that also is a challenge to both of us. Now, you are not only a technology entrepreneur, but a wonderful innovator in that field. Tell us what you think the opportunities are in terms of the technology reach. Because we could go view online in India, the block model potentially for many others than just within the umbrella of the first endeavor. So have you thought that through sort of long-term goals, you know, the dream? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:23:12 So let me put kind of the education needs of India. Let me boil that down to a few numbers. Today there are about 40 million Indians in higher education, but that represents a 27% cross enrollment ratio. And the government wants that 27% to go to about 40%, which means, Adam, that 40 million number has to go to about 60 million. Yeah. There have to be 20 million new seats in colleges in India in the next 10 years. Yeah. And somebody did a study of this and said, oh, that means we have to open 50 new colleges every week. Yeah. That ain't gonna happen. No. Right? So the way that is only going, the way that 20 million is gonna get educated is going to be through a mix of technology and of course some additional infrastructure. Yeah. So absolutely we have to use technology. Now the question is, how do you use technology in the right way that has the right efficacy in terms of outcomes, right? I don't think it's just record, you know, lectures put it out there and people learn at their own pace. You have to think about it in a more deliberate manner. It has to be cohort based, it has to have some amount of peer to peer interaction. It has to have feedback that has to have all of those bells and whistles that lead to a proper learning outcome. Yeah. But if we can do that, well, again, the size of the opportunity, 20 million Indians need to be taught every year for the next 10 years.
Speaker 2 00:24:30 It's a, it's a wonderful thing because we, we've also mentioned the first year college model of blowing up the idea of a single hierarchical faculty and making it all disciplines, all areas, all areas that are relevant to people coming into a first year experience. That's what we do. And then the block model then derives from that. Is that an opportunity also in India?
Speaker 3 00:24:51 Potentially. It's a country that's very open to innovation. Right. The question though, I think is it's been constrained by innovation from the supply side. There are many reasons for that. But I think somebody like a vu, if you come in with those innovative ideas, I think you'll find students as well as the market fairly receptive.
Speaker 2 00:25:08 Yep. And so, you know, you've mentioned insead, MIT, Harvard and so on, you know, these are great brand names. What would the brand name of Victoria University be like in India, do you think?
Speaker 3 00:25:19 So I think, look, Le India is, has been a colonial country. So Victoria is, is a good name to have. I, I wouldn't grudge the fact that it's Victoria University. But you know, I think for any university foreign university that's looking at India, you could rest on your laurels of how big my brand is back home. But you have to understand India is a market by itself. Yeah. And you have to earn the right to be a successful brand in India. Yes. What I find most refreshing in our conversations with VU is that VU is not resting on the laurels of, hey, we are Vu, we are so well known back home, but they are thinking about how do we build a great university in India? For India, right? Yes. And it's already, I can tell you that is the first step to success. The openness to learn, embrace, and do what's relevant for that market. Yeah. So I would say, look, your block model of teaching, that is already a differentiator. I don't think anybody is doing that in India. So doing that well is going to, you know, create waves, bringing in this whole industry and academia collaboration. There are certain areas here, Adam, that you've spoken about how, for example, in paramedic research or for example in nursing and other areas, sports sciences, et cetera, what you're doing, if you can find ways to translate that to India, that will set you apart and that will make vu vu.
Speaker 2 00:26:38 Yeah. And you know, distinctiveness, surprise wonderfulness, that's the aim. But look what you've done. You've come here specifically to talk with us. We're so grateful. Not only because of you personally and your colleagues, but the intent. And the intent is to surprise and delight to use that horatian sort of concept. And we will do both together. Can I say this? We can't wait till the next podcast and we'll do it in India. Thank you, Ashwin. Thank you Adam. Looking forward to that.
