Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Barma Forest and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the rung wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 Hello colleagues and welcome to the People of VU podcast, episode 52. Firstly, I want to thank KJ for her amazing acknowledgement of country. We really honor, we really listen and we really appreciate the words that you have said, kj, but also the message behind the words. So it's not just acknowledgement, but deep respect for ancestors, elders and families of all of the traditional owners on our many campuses, including in Sydney and in Brisbane, but locally as well. Today's guest, I'm delighted to introduce is Dr. Rashani, Jay Wadena, who's a postdoctoral researcher here at VU and who has worked with many organizations, but especially with Ani Balik, with the Community Identity Displacement Research Network and the Institute for Health and Sport. And the whole name of the game is young people pushed through and into margins through race or gender or class or place, or in fact intersectional reasons of all of the above. But it's just fantastic to have you with us. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 00:02:20 Thank you for having me, Adam.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 It's really good. It's really good. And I, I'm gonna be quite personal because I know that you grew up in this part of the world. So tell us a bit about that. You know, what was it like, did, what exact part of the western Melbourne did you grow up in and what was it like?
Speaker 3 00:02:33 Yeah, so I was born and raised in St. Alban's, which is sort of in the Brimbank area. And what it was like, I think I've always loved the area that I grew up in. There's so much cultural diversity and richness. Yeah. You know, you just go down to Alfreda Street and you can get like amazing like Vietnamese food and you know, gonna school. Like it was a very sort of racially and culturally diverse space. Yeah. And I think that sometimes like people view the west in particular ways. Yeah. And see aspects of that to be, I guess, you know, like not the greatest or deficit in particular ways. But I think that the lived experience of being from the West I think is such a different thing because myself and a lot of other young people from the west see it as such beauty and richness.
Speaker 2 00:03:22 There's a lot of beauty. And did you have a large family group growing up?
Speaker 3 00:03:26 Yeah, so I'm the youngest in my family. I've got an older sister. Yeah. And my parents, they migrated to Australia from Sri Lanka in the 1980s. Yeah. So they've also always been in the west of Melbourne. So they moved to Footscray living in Essex Street and then they moved to St. Alban's, which is sort of where I grew up. And so it's been really nice being, you know, like from, I guess a migrant family but also being surrounded by other migrant families as well. So you know, I think there's that connection that you have with people, not just around place and being from the west, but also what it means to grow up racialized in Australia
Speaker 2 00:04:04 Really. And it's got kind of pride, a matter of pride that you're there together as well. Did you find as a young person that this place mattered? Like the geography mattered to you, you know, really was special? Can you put your finger on why?
Speaker 3 00:04:17 That's really interesting. I think sometimes particularly, you know, institutions or people outside the west conceptualize the west in particular ways. Yeah. And I think sometimes when you're just living and experiencing and existing, you don't really realize that that's how people are seeing you. I think in terms of why being from the west and being connected to the west is so important. I think community is a really big aspect. I think, you know, and I'll talk a little bit about it in my research, but I think the main thing for people is that lived experience of knowing what it's like to come from these places to be surrounded by, you know, cultural diversity, to be surrounded by people who are similar to you. Yeah. Who have similar communities and connections and and values and richness. I think that that is probably what connects us all. Yes. And I think that people do wear it as a label of pride, sort of resisting those deficit labels and those ways that people label us from the west in. Yeah. Sort of those negative ways sort of reclaiming that.
Speaker 2 00:05:19 I think it's so important. Right. And we just recently had the west of Melbourne Economic Development Alliance summit. It's a long name, but it's actually yeah. Shortened to Wame and has done a lot of great work. You know, in terms of if you like, giving birth to the idea of this hospital at Scra Park. We're sitting at Scra Park campus and the new hospital's almost built, but it also was talking about the, the middle West and the outer west. Did you ever think of it as sort of inner west, middle West and outer west or just west?
Speaker 3 00:05:47 I've always thought of it as just west. Yeah. But there are distinctions like you know, if you are in St. Albans compared to if you're in Werribee. Yeah. You know, but I think that even though there are differences even with like particular migrant communities that migrate to these particular places in the West, I think that there's still that collective sort of understanding of, you know, communities always at the for forefront. You always have culture at the forefront in the West. And so I think that yeah, those things sort of tie us together and we have that solidarity I guess in a way. And
Speaker 2 00:06:18 Solidarity is a big word and it's also also a big word in your research and everything else you've done. So at that point, studying you, did your high school, did you decide to come to VU directly or did you do something else first? Or did you come straight out of high school?
Speaker 3 00:06:31 Yeah, so I came straight out of high school into a psychology degree at vu. So I think in high school I didn't really know what I wanted to do and pursue, but I had done VC psychology and I really enjoyed sort of understanding people and understanding, you know, what people are like and how people think and all of those, I guess general things that people have an interest in when they are interested in psychology. Yeah. But I also had like a real passion for social justice and I always saw those two things as separate. So you know, my parents were really, you know, they're huge advocates of like vu. Like my parents when they came to Australia, particularly my dad, like he didn't know how to speak English. And the only sort of institution he's engaged with has been VU and same as my mom.
Speaker 3 00:07:18 Wow. Wow. So when I was deciding on universities to go to, they were very like, you know, you gotta go to Vu there. That was also the time where St. Auburn's campus, you know, was, I guess, you know, the psychology classes were also offered there as well. And I live in St. Alban, so they were like, it should really be a no-brainer. Yes. Everything's pointing to be you. But I think that was the thing that like community is really centered. Mm. In Victoria universities. I guess, what do you describe it? Like the ways that they connect with community, but also it being a university for the West.
Speaker 2 00:07:55 And think about it too, even St Albans has unique features that no other view campus has. You know, I think it's a marvelous place to be be at, walk around. And when you think of the IMU grasslands, think about the way that you tend for First Nations knowledge and plants and the way that's propagated with educational centers that the, that volunteers take part in from the community. Half of them. Yeah. From the community and half from the uni. Did you do any of that work when you were there?
Speaker 3 00:08:21 I didn't know. And I think it's also like, you know, coming into the university space and coming straight from like year 12, I was like, oh, like this is such a big huge space and there's so many things to be involved in and I didn't really know. And I think sort of navigating, you know, coming into institutions can be really tricky and scary for a lot of young people. And I think it was for me as well. Like I was like, oh, it's just this big institution and I dunno how to like find my way around and do these things. But I think, yeah, being in this space and in the institution for a while and sort of learning about these little pockets of space and opportunities has been really good. And I think one of the things that I sort of wanna do through my work, but also connecting with organizations is passing that on so that young people do feel ready and safe and feel like they do have the spaces within universities to be able to connect into those. Because I think, yeah, those things are really helpful and important to sort of building that sense of belonging, but also finding your place here in institutions.
Speaker 2 00:09:16 Now you said you had a passion for social justice. Yeah. Where did that come from?
Speaker 3 00:09:21 I think that the experiences of what it meant to grow up racialized in Australia were quite particular. And so I think that I've always, you know, been interested in, you know, these ideas of how young people are labeled in particular ways, but have these complex experiences. You know, they navigate hardship particularly like in the West, but they also have so much joy in community and connection as you know, I mentioned. So I think that, you know, when we look at institutions, media for example, the ways that they label and paint particular groups of people, I think it really, you know, upset me but also kind of lit a fire in me to be like, okay, well what can we do and how can we resist these and counter these stories? And so I think that's sort of where my passion for social justice sort of came from, came from at a very young age I think. And I've always held onto that. Yeah. But I think coming to an institution and also finding research as well and community psychology. Yeah. I think that was really a space for me to be like, oh I can actually join these two things together. It's wonder thing and bring my passion. It's a wonderful thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:10:29 It's amazing. 'cause like community psychology is not taught everywhere. Mm. And so it's, you know, it's a really strong view specialty, especially when you came. So just for those who don't know, could you explain what it is?
Speaker 3 00:10:41 Yeah, so I guess when we look at mental health or mal mental wellbeing, we think of sort of it from an individual perspective. So we look at the individuals and what they're doing and what they can sort of do to move through that. And I think community psychology really focuses on not just individuals, but individuals exist within communities. Yeah. They also exist within systems and societies. So it's not just an individualistic issue or thing that needs to be worked through, but it's also about what are the systems and communities and spaces that sort of need to shift and change in order for people to be able to be their true self and express their identities. And yeah, there's sort of a focus as well in community psychology around communities, but particularly communities that perhaps don't, you know, are not part of the dominant Yeah. You know, their stories are not always told or when they're told, they're told by people outside of the experience. And so really highlighting and amplifying those voices is really an important, I guess, approach in community psychology, particularly in the research space.
Speaker 2 00:11:49 So a lot of this is really listening carefully to voice. Yes. Yeah. And whose voice and whose voice isn't heard. Yes. That's what I'm hearing you say. And, and interestingly, you know, one of the things we used to talk about a lot in oral history, 'cause I'm trained in oral history, is trust the tale, not just the teller. Mm. Because sometimes the teller is under pressure. Yeah. But the words can sometimes tell you much more and what's hidden and it's not always obvious. Do you find that too when you're having discussions? You've been a podcaster yourself, so maybe we should go to that. Yeah. Tell me what did you do your podcast in?
Speaker 3 00:12:21 Yeah, so it was part of my PhD that I did in partnership with Brim Mag Neighborhood Houses. Yeah. And so essentially it was a group of young people from Brimbank and we all sort of connected together to create a youth led radio program and station called Brimbank Live. Yeah. And so this was all of us sort of co-creating stories together, also deciding what we wanted to talk about as well. So we sort of had full reign in terms of the topics, the conversations of people that we interviewed. And it was about a range of things like young people spoke about sport, they spoke, spoke about music, pop culture, race, gender. And I think it was really cool to have this literal space where young people were able to really show their complexities and show that they have different passions and an array of different identities and intersectional identities as well. Yeah. Particularly because, you know, we always have that blanket statement of what it means to be from the west, but we sort of had this space and controlled this space in order to tell our own stories about what it was actually
Speaker 2 00:13:31 Like and, and telling stories is such a crucial thing. So Bri Bank Live, can you remember back to that? Because you're talking about what I think it's technically called radio making and I don't mean the divisive radio, it's the voice of radio, the, the persuasiveness of it, just like we're doing right now. And so what wa what was the biggest surprise you ever had doing a podcast?
Speaker 3 00:13:51 Hmm. I think that it was people's vulnerability and I think sometimes when you know you are engaging in conversation, especially with radio making or podcasting, it enables people to sort of speak from the heart and you're giving them that space to really unravel things that they're thinking about. Whether it's, you know, the TV shows that they watched or whether it's, you know, the sport game they watched or whether it's their identities or things that they've experienced. You know, whether it's structural violence or whether it's discrimination or exclusion. And I think that radio making allows voice to be centered in that process and it really sort of uplifts the storytelling element. Yeah. Which I think is really important. And
Speaker 2 00:14:35 Is it more egalitarian do you think, than other forms of media?
Speaker 3 00:14:39 I think that I found a really special place, you know, coming to this radio making and it, I think it has a soft spot or I have a soft spot for it because it allows communities to be the voices behind the stories they tell. Yeah. And I think that, you know, a lot of the time when you see other forms of media, which are great, it's not always the people that get to share their stories from their own voices, but radio and sort of that sort of oral and auditory process really allows you to actually be the voice behind the stories that you are sort of expressing to the world.
Speaker 2 00:15:16 And so isn't it fascinating when you think about occupations and people have many different things that they affiliate with. Students of course are all just imagining what the world might be for them. But I remember speaking with Maureen Watson who is a very, very well known indigenous elder in Queensland at the time. And I said to her, what do you write down on your passport when they say occupation? And she said, storyteller. Mm. And it's the only time I have seen that in Australia was working with First Nations people. Did you have any experiences working with people who would've written storyteller as well?
Speaker 3 00:15:46 Mm, I think so. And I think learning from Ani Bullock and the amazing staunch researchers and activists in that space has been really helpful to sort of understand that there's different knowledges and different ways that we can express knowledge. And so I think that, you know, the way that I've come to understand the radio process and radio making is really we're making knowledge. Yeah. When we make radio and when we engage in radio processes, you know, everything that we share is, you know, for people to learn from and to engage with. And I think that, yeah. You know, sort of indigenous communities do that really well where there's not just one type of knowledge and it's not just, you know, writing something and putting it into a journal, but there's so many ways that we can engage in knowledge production but also the amplification and sharing of knowledge.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 Yeah. And I'm very interested in the work that you're doing both in terms of research on behalf of the, the state and others, but also here as a postdoctoral researcher like that. Congratulations by the way. That's a huge achievement. I mean not everyone, I've never been a postdoc, you know, it's a big thing. So how did you feel when you got the postdoctoral work? Meaning you've done your PhD by the way, what was the topic name of your PhD?
Speaker 3 00:16:57 Yeah, so I guess the title of my PhD Hmm was Bri Manc Live Young People Narrating Stories of Resistance. And I guess the topic was around understanding or looking at how young people can create their own spaces for storytelling. Also looking at the potential of radio making through that process. Yeah. But also understanding what are young people's stories in brimbank, which for me was my favorite part.
Speaker 2 00:17:24 Yeah. And how is it different now in the postdoc environment? What are you doing that's different?
Speaker 3 00:17:29 I think that what's cool about the work that I'm doing now is there's still elements of, you know, the creative vehicles elements of working with community. But I'm able to do that on these sort of different projects where I'm still that heart of what it means to have community voices and communities guiding sort of work. Is there in terms of what's different? Like I've sort of moved away from radio making Yes. Looking at other creative practices. So working with Ani Bullock for example, I'm working on black women's healing and that's a project that sort of works with aboriginal women in the west. Yeah. And engaging in cultural practices and having conversations with them. So we do bush dying for example, which you know, is still a creative practice but very, very different to radio making. But it's still a way that we can engage in talking and having conversations.
Speaker 3 00:18:22 And so, you know, using different creative vehicles and different ways of embodied work to still have these conversations I think is the similarity, the thing that ties us together. But the type of modality is always shifting and changing. And so the work that I'm also doing on a project around sport and visuals is understanding how, you know, visuals can tell stories about gender and race, how they can represent coloniality, but also how we can see them as pictures of resistance. So sort of the visual aspect coming in as well. So I think the thing that ties all of the work that I do together is that creative aspect of doing research and engaging in research. I agree. But different ways of doing it. I
Speaker 2 00:19:04 Get the impression you're a very creative person and very interested in the relational world. That matters a lot to you. In fact, you know, you've been so contrary to come from an event which you were talking and with the community identity and displacement research network talking about research as accompaniment. Yeah. Almost like an orchestral term. How did you come up with that term?
Speaker 3 00:19:25 Yeah, so that term is spoken about, written about a lot in community psychology. And it's basically where we as researchers, we are not the expert but we sort of accompany and work alongside community to understand their experiences and what that includes is co-creating with them. Yeah. So it's not that we just write a paper and it's got our name on it, but it's done with community. Community get to decide what's in these research reports and research papers. They sort of tell us what it is that they need from these spaces and what they want. Sometimes we work with them in putting the research questions together and really understanding what is it that you need from this space of research. Yeah. And how can we sort of facilitate and sort of empower them to, to do that. Yeah. And so I think that lived experience is really important when you're doing research, especially working in communities. And so that helps when you're working in your own community to do that accompaniment and to also participate in the processes and spaces. And so even with my radio work, I was part of the program as a young person from Brimbank as well. So I got to co-create the stories with young people. I got to do radio shows with the young people and that was so cool. So it's this immersive embodied experience. Yeah. Whilst you're also documenting the research process or the process for research purposes,
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Sounds like you had some fun.
Speaker 3 00:20:49 Oh, lots fun. You know,
Speaker 2 00:20:51 A lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't just work. Nah. I mean don't give the impression this was just a chore. I think you loved it. Yeah. Yeah. And just like we're enjoying talking today. Yes. You
Speaker 3 00:20:58 Know? Yeah. I think
Speaker 2 00:20:59 The emotion comes through.
Speaker 3 00:21:00 Yeah. I think as well, like being able to learn as well from community, coming into a space, creating with them, learning from them because they have so much knowledge to share. But then yeah. Also creating those relationships and building those friendships is really important. Yeah. When you're doing research in community building trust and reciprocity. Yeah. And so I think that that takes time obviously, but it's so rewarding being able to do that type of community engaged work where you're not just there as a researcher, but sometimes you take that researcher hat off Yeah. And you actually jump in. And I think that that is the real nice potential about being able to do research in this way.
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Somebody once sent said to me, it's a bit like acting when whatever number of walls you agree there are on stage and people have a debate about the third wall or the fourth wall. Yeah. You break all the walls Mm. In this com combination because you're both participant and an actor. Yeah. You know and an actor. Yeah. You know, you're in enacting what you're doing. So in other words, it's not a passive question and answer situation. You're really both rising into the performance together. Yes. Is that a reasonable summary?
Speaker 3 00:22:09 I think so. And I think as well it allows you to bring yourself as a person to the work. Yeah. Because we're never separate from the research work that we do, even though people talk about this idea of being objective. Mm. You know, there's no such thing as being objective. We come with our own identities and experiences and that shapes the way that we do research. Yeah. So it's about honoring that as well and bringing that to the table. And I think that helps to build that trust and those relationships with community. But it also I think, enriches the work that you then produce.
Speaker 2 00:22:39 Yeah. So bit of a couple of things. One is you came from a background which is proudly international. And I haven't asked you if you speak languages other than other than English, but do you
Speaker 3 00:22:49 I can understand Sese. Yeah. And I can speak a little bit. Yeah. But I'm not fluent.
Speaker 2 00:22:54 Not fluent. Yeah. Because I'm just wondering in the context of this work and really honoring the backgrounds of people, is it all in English,
Speaker 3 00:23:01 The podcasts? Yeah. And the radio
Speaker 2 00:23:02 And the work that that you're doing now as well?
Speaker 3 00:23:04 Yeah. Well for Brimbank Live it was, but there were aspects of, you know, language. Yeah. That was sort of tied into it. So for example, it was, we did this whole radio program when it was, you know, lockdowns in Melbourne. Yeah. So this was during the pandemic. And so a lot of young people, we didn't just, you know, put together radio shows, but we also wrote and produced music that went onto our radio shows. So you know, the music that was played during the breaks was actually music produced and written by young people from the radio programs. Right. And so there was a couple of songs that young people had written and put together to sort of talk about like COVID and the safety of, you know, keeping Safe during the pandemic. And some of the young people actually performed that in language as well. So Wow. That was really cool to be able to, yeah. Just use these creative vehicles to not only tell our stories but also tell our stories through music and how that can also tie into language. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:24:07 Language of music and the language of language. Yeah. Both. I think that's really interesting insight. So the outcomes now fascinating to ask. Yeah. Where will this go next? Where do you predict you are going? First of all, I'll talk about the research and then we'll talk about you, but Yeah. You know, they're not quite the same. Yeah. But they're connected. Right. So first the research, where does it go next?
Speaker 3 00:24:25 Mm, that's a good question. I think that, you know, the program was incredible. It ran for two years and I guess the, the ways or the things that came out of the program continue to be transferred in different spaces. So you know, thinking about all of the young people that were involved in Brimbank Live and what they're doing now, how they've been able to use the skills that they learned because we also didn't just engage in radio making, but we were trained, we were given resources. We went through this whole process of actually learning to be able to engage in the radio making process. Yeah. And so a lot of the young people now, you know, work for broadcasting companies, you know, continue to mc and host, you know, events in Melbourne and also like interstate. They've also sort of applied this way of understanding through like journalism.
Speaker 3 00:25:17 And so I think that even though the program doesn't run in its sort of formal capacity, these young people have taken these skills and what they've learnt and shared them and continue to share them in other spaces. Which I think also speaks to the fact that sometimes with research projects or programs in general, sometimes they do come to a close and it would be amazing if it could keep going and if we had all the funding in the world to make them continue. But sometimes that's not the case. But we need to sort of think outside the box in terms of how, you know, these particular spaces can have this continual impact in different ways and in different settings.
Speaker 2 00:25:53 And just like an interview could lead to, for example, curriculum being taught. Yeah. Or could lead to a change in policy or a change in legislation. The idea that you said of radio making giving is almost like confidence making for people. Mm. Very interesting insight 'cause that everything you described was people believing in themselves in a different environment.
Speaker 3 00:26:13 Yeah. Yeah. And I think as well, like a lot of the young people when we came to the space of radio making, had never engaged in radio making before, myself included. And it was so scary because it was like, what do you mean I have to talk for an hour and what do I talk about and what if I'm, you know, not saying the right things. And I think it is that building of skills and understanding, but also building that confidence that you can actually do this. And also having mentors and people in council really encourage young people and see potential in them as well. Because for a lot of us, you know, sometimes our experiences in these spaces have not always been positive and sometimes adults can see us in particular ways. And so I think it was really reassuring and really important for the young people to see that, you know, it's not just my friends encouraging me, but it's people from council spaces or it's this amazing, you know, radio producer that's seeing the potential in me and in what I can do. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, that was something that really came out of the process that young people highlighted.
Speaker 2 00:27:14 It's a fascinating place. I mean Brimbank itself, not just the city council and how it's changing, but the nomination of Sunshine is a kind of ma major hub for the future connections with the airport Rail link that have been announced, all these kinds of things. What do you think your parents make of all this?
Speaker 3 00:27:30 It's really interesting 'cause I think that they still see the space in the same way they've always seen it, which has always been so rich and so great. But I think sometimes like, yeah it takes a while for, for other people outside of the space to, to see that potential. But I think as much as it changes and there's all of these amazing things happening, it's still the same space that we grew up in. It's the same parks, it's the same, you know, public spaces. And I think that's really nice because it's still feels like the humble West in in those ways whilst, you know, I guess all of these amazing things are happening within it and around it
Speaker 2 00:28:04 Humble and superb at the same time. Mm. Yeah. A bit like your career so far I'd say. But now we want to ask about what you're gonna do next now too.
Speaker 3 00:28:11 Yeah. Well at the moment I'm, you know, working with Srin, the Community Identity Displacement Research Network. We've got amazing projects that we are doing. You know, similar to the work that I described around using creative vehicles. Really these community led projects. But how can research enable and facilitate communities to work and create solutions to things that they need and create spaces for themselves. But how research can be used as a tool to sort of help and guide them. Also doing work with Ani Bullock, working on the Black Women's Healing Project and continuing to sort of do this work I think is where my passions lie. Yeah. And seeing the projects through that I'm that I'm on, which all sort of tie into the same things that I've been doing but amplify them and push me outta the box a little bit more. So yeah, sort of hoping to do that for the next couple of years and see yeah, where the wind takes me I guess.
Speaker 2 00:29:17 Yeah. That's great. Well the winds of this information are so good. Rashani, I've learned a lot. I'm sure everyone will too. But not only learned a lot, I've been inspired by it. Like truthfully, I think using voice in the way you have done as a placemaking and as a place recognizing thing is so crucial and the world needs more of it 'cause we are losing the sense of place if not. And so I was wondering what it would be like podcasting with a podcaster today. But it's been absolutely delightful and I've can only say thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:29:46 Thank you so much, Adam.
