Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome. I'm here to provide acknowledgement of country. For those who don't know me, I'm kj Karen Jackson, director of Moon Balletic. My genealogy tracks back to Moira Lakes in Bama Forest, and Mount Hope in Pyramid Hill. Giving me my connections to Yorta, Yorta, and Barra language groups. There's a couple of things I'd like you to take away from my acknowledgement. The first is to remember the hidden history of Aboriginal people since invasion, our loss of language removal from country, and our new extinction from massacres and pandemics. The second is our strong and inherent connection to community and country. These connections have given us the resilience and courage to rebuild our languages, gain access to country, regenerate our cultural practices in acknowledging the traditional owners of the country on which you are now on. I'd like to sincerely thank them for their generosity and kindness in welcoming people onto their lands. Lands never seeded and lands that run deep into their being and spirit. I wish to pay my deep respect to the ancestors, elders, communities, and families of the Ang Wri on whose land I stand and who create connection and share knowledge with all of us. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 So, hello colleagues and and welcome to the people of VU podcast. Can I, as always thank KJ for providing her acknowledgement of country at the beginning of every episode? It matters so much to us, not only to hear your voice, but the words matter to every person who's in the the Vu family more, more broadly. And I wanted to acknowledge my deep respect for ancestors, elders, and families of all the traditional owners on all of our campuses, be they here, be they in New South Wales or Queensland. And also extend that to wherever you may be listening to this podcast. So we are so lucky here. We have someone who is a genuine member of our family at vu, a PhD graduate, someone who's created one of the most interesting international and national organizations, STEM Sisters, and her name is Dr. Ruhi. Fernando, I wanna welcome you to the people of VU podcast. Wan, it's fantastic to have you here.
Speaker 3 00:02:11 Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Speaker 2 00:02:14 It's great. It's great. And we were just trying to remember when we first met. Yes, Wendy. And yes, it was actually during the time of the World pandemic. Yes. And I think it was 2021. Yes. And you were the president of the Victoria University Postgraduate Association. Yeah. So do you wanna maybe pick up the story? Yeah. How that worked and what, what, what was the occasion?
Speaker 3 00:02:30 Yeah. Me such, such a memory lane going back. So it was the pandemic, and then we planned it was kind of coming out of it, or we were not sure. So it's an annual event that we have at the high tea event at the Parliament. So we organized it. We normally invite the Vice Chancellor, but unfortunately, you know, they, it was a lockdown back again, and we had to postpone, like, cancel it. And then we decided to do it online. Yeah. And we send the vouchers to all of the members to have their IT at home. And, and then we had the IT online
Speaker 2 00:03:05 Very in innovative, and it worked. Yes. I gotta say we still remember it because of that, you know, and I think that's one of the bylines of all of your career. When are any sort of doubts you might have? What are the, what is the solution? What is the way around it? Yeah. And I think that's a theme that over and over again we encounter. Yeah. In looking at what you've done, it's amazing. So roge, not only are you an alum, alumna, an AI leader, a STEM change maker, or world changer if you want, but also leading this nationwide movement to really advance equity for women of color in STEM fields. That's such a fantastic thing to have done. Yeah. Thank you. But I'll start there first and say, of all of those elements, which one makes you the most proud?
Speaker 3 00:03:45 I believe the equity part, that bringing that change and bringing that conversation, bringing that importance of the topic. Because we need to really celebrate everyone. We need to make sure that everyone gets the opportunity to be part of, in anything. Right. Because it's so unfair, the systematic barriers really triggers me. Yeah. Because these are not, like, these are individuals who have been held back by these opportunities, and that's so unfair. And like, you know, whether we give whatever kind of, you know, questions about it. Like we have now the technology, the opportunity to change that and why we are not doing it. So we just have, as humans, this is our duty to change that now. Hmm. Like of course, we all stand on shoulders of many giants who have brought this equity to discussion and given so much value and, and systematic change. But I think this generation, with the technology, the power that what we have, we can really eliminate a lot of the systematic issues.
Speaker 2 00:04:46 Yeah. And it's so true. And, and look, I've recently come back from a conference where we we're discussing called a, a Center for Equitable Futures. Yeah. Worldwide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, there's very important movements against equity at the moment, which we have to labor hard against. Yes, yes. But in fact, it's drawing attention to the fact of how important it is. Yes. So, if I can call it the DEI initiative is actually gaining support rather than losing it worldwide as a result. It's interesting, isn't it? So when something's under threat, people rise up to defend it. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:05:15 It's amazing, I think, and Australia is such a great country with setting examples to it, and of course we haven't got everything right. No. But there is opportunity and there, there are opportunity given for people to make that change happen.
Speaker 2 00:05:27 I think so too. Now look, you, you mentioned Australia. I wasn't born here, neither were you? Yes. So let's talk about where we came from. Yeah. So tell me about your early life and where you grew up. It'd be very interesting.
Speaker 3 00:05:37 Yeah. So I born in Sri Lanka, initially in Marle because my father was an electrical engineer. So he traveled to, you know, multiple states during his governmental positions. But then later we moved back to his home, inner know city, which is, it's a coastal line. My family, my father, my mom, and my elder sister. So four of us is a very tight knit, small, very loving, caring family. My father was very, he's a hands-on engineer, very analytical person. I think I have some gifts from him. Yeah. And then again, he's, he's, I think he's, again, another thing that he had very strongly equity part. Yeah. He was, he really wanted us to speak up when we see something injustice happen, not just for ourselves, for others. And then to really question that. Yeah. So, and then my mother was such a loving, caring, and that sort of person.
Speaker 3 00:06:29 So it was a great mixture. And I had a elder sister who is similar, very loving and caring. And you know, we both studied very well. Yeah. I went to a convent, holy family convent, Tre. And I had a great academic journey there. Lot of things. Not just education. Did a lot things to music, to dance, to some sports, to whatnot. And then I was the deputy head preferred of the school. I became the best science student when I was doing my, like, high school kind of a levels, what we call back then, and then back to university and whatnot. And things
Speaker 2 00:07:04 Went, yes. May I just ask you now, what, what's your elder sister doing these days?
Speaker 3 00:07:09 She is, that's the reason I came to Australia. Yeah. Yeah. Because she's here, right? So she's married with kids, and then they're running the business of the, she, she actually studied, you know, agricultural science there, but she, you know, similar like me got graduated. But he's, her husband is a gp, so, you know, taking more responsibility at home. So she's part of the business, but she's not taking a fully STEM career.
Speaker 2 00:07:34 Right. So effectively two big members of the family have come here. Yes. And formed incredible relationships. It must be your parents must have been so proud.
Speaker 3 00:07:43 Yeah. My father passed away. I really feel that if he alive to see like, you know, he was like, when until I graduated my uni and all of that, he was alive. But I think he will be very proud to seeing both of us. Yes. He
Speaker 2 00:07:58 Was. Oh, that's amazing. It's so important. Now winding it back. So when we, we first met, of course, the world was not in great shape Yes. In terms of, you know, illness and so on with the pandemic. But lots of great things were still happening. When did this idea for STEM sisters actually get born and who gave it birth?
Speaker 3 00:08:15 Yeah. So I came to, you know, start my PhD at VU in 2017. And then of course, like, you know, STEM women in STEM problem is a global problem. Yeah. Like, you know, there is only few countries who have kind of got it par in somewhat. Yeah. But it's, it's a global issue. You know, women have been underrepresented in many careers and especially in stem. But in, in Australia, the conversation, the, the investment was quite there for gender equity. Hmm. But there was a gap. There was not leaky looking into this intersectional gap Yes. Of understanding who these women are. And there are additional barriers for different women. Yeah. Because it was only about gender. Yeah. If I tell you in another simplistic way, all women face a G glass ceiling, anyone on an intersection, it can be culture, it can be ethnicity, race, gender, like, you know, disability ability, neurodiverse, sexual orientation, any of them.
Speaker 3 00:09:11 Or age, what you have is a concrete. Yeah. So you, we were given a tool to break a glass, but never given a tool to break a concrete. Yeah. And, and especially for the women of color, like all of intersections really matters. And we need to really harness on how do we make sure these systematic barriers are really looked in and worked on. But women of color was a significant bigger portion because Australia needed the STEM talent. Yeah. They came in as international students and then got into their permanent residency citizenship or Australia brought them, you know, through special visas and whatnot. Yeah. Because we needed more diverse STEM perspective. But unfortunately they come here, they're leaving like some of the top world organizations from different countries. But when they come here, they don't have a system to kind of find their pathway in stem. So this was a large portion, if I tell you some statistics. Yes. We didn't have statistics in 2017. Right. We kind of have pushed to get this. Yes. But some little bit, this doesn't cover, like when we say women of color, the proper definition is from Diversity Council Australia. It says culturally, racially marginalized women. Cald.
Speaker 2 00:10:23 Yes, yes. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:10:24 Sorry, sorry. Camp ca. Camp. Camp. So camp. So that's the proper definition for women of color. Yes. So it's a self-identification of it. So that includes migrant women, aboriginal community, second generation, whatnot. Anyone who kind of feel there is an additional barrier of race or ethnicity. But for like, there's a larger portion of that is migrants. Yes. Right? Yes. And these migrants, there is this, this is the only statistics that we have aligned to this. Yeah. The chief scientist report in 2020. Yeah. Said this is a big report about STEM workforce. Yeah. In that there is a chapter about women, and there are some statistic. For the first time in 2020, this reveal, 56% of university qualified STEM women are women who are born overseas. Wow. Yeah. And they face all the four times unemployment compared to women. They are compared to other counterparts. Yeah. Yeah. Now, the problem in this is if we didn't had STEM opportunities, then this could have been, you know, you could have justified. But the thing is, in stem, they have been asking for more women in STEM all the time. There are so many opportunities. Yeah. And when you have demand and supply both, and if the equilibrium is not working out in a natural form, yeah. That means there is bias here.
Speaker 2 00:11:38 Well, that's not an equilibrium at all. No. It's actually, as you say, it's a blockage. Yes. It's an absolute blockage. Now I'm recall recalling, when I was in Brisbane, I was on the board of an all female school. Yeah. And one of the most important projects we did was creating, creating an entire building on stem, designed by women taught by women for women for STEM careers. Yes. You know, like that kind of symbol is really important. But you're saying as well, the talent has always been there. Yes. But the recognition has not. No,
Speaker 3 00:12:07 No. And that's and the opportunity, the visibility, the, the, the, the like, either sometimes you get step into the door, but you are being stopped there. You don't get progress, you don't get into leadership. You don't like, you know, the support in order, in order to kind of rise with the system. Yes. Right. That, that equal pathways are not provided.
Speaker 2 00:12:26 It's amazing. Now there's more than a, a pipeline here, as you describe it, it's not even leaky. It's a huge leak. Yes. You know, like, let's face it, it's something which we really, really need to address. And do you feel that addressing it is now starting to gain purchase in more than it started in Victoria, but it's now growing, right? Yes. So do you feel more confident now that this, this attitude, this approach is now people are listening to you?
Speaker 3 00:12:50 Yes. Yes. Most strongly. Yes. We have great allies in this journey. Like, there are so many people who have supported, like, you know, some were kind of naive because they, this was not their lived experience. They didn't understand the problem. So we went on it. Like, and we didn't just go saying, okay, these are problems. Problems. We went with solutions. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what like, you know, like many other like non-profits or many other movements, we were very direct as solutions. We identified what are the leaks. Right. Very clearly, there are four leaky pipelines that we have very clearly identified. We don't provide any STEM skills from STEM systems. 'cause these women are highly qualified. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. That's like now we have some initiatives for a next generation for outreach. Yeah. But that was very later started. Right. 'cause our focus was these women with great qualifications, mostly with PhDs.
Speaker 3 00:13:37 Yeah. Right. And, and why they are not being, you know, prospering in their STEM careers. So what we wanted to provide is a visibility, mentorship visibility for them, and then who they are to be known by the industry or from the government or from academia and whatnot. Right. So, bridging these graph is what we have done through our nine, you know, great initiatives. Yep. Which are all being awarded, you know, multiple international, international awards and great recognition. And we have great impact reports. I really welcome anyone listening to visit our website, click on our impact page and go through that. Yeah. You'll be amazed to see how much that people have benefited. Yeah. And what transformative things has happened in your journeys because of the programs.
Speaker 2 00:14:21 It's so great. Look, I mean, the story is something that you're very, I wanna say you're quite humble about this. I, I know it's comes naturally to you, but where you are always saying we, but a lot of this is I as well. Like you've had an incredible role to play in generating the ideas and the enthusiasm and the connections. Look at what you're doing now. Coming back here very generously as our, basically our expert in residence, but entrepreneur in residence and basically, you know, someone who's now in the world of work and the world of industry coming back to VU to interpret and to explain to new students. So how does that feel coming back here now at this time in your career?
Speaker 3 00:14:56 Oh, VU was my home. Like, you know, basically it was that like my supervisors, I should say their names, professor y ch and Professor Hua. Yes. They were great supervisors. They knew my potential. They gave me the big, like the maximum freedom to, so that I could pursue my PhD equally. Well. Yes. Right. Equally do my, all of the other engagement, like, you know. Yeah. I, I was a top up PhD scholarship from Data 61 CSRO. I got department of transport industry, like, you know, a PR internship. I did three mt I did everything. Yes. So this freedom and opportunity, they really trusted me that I, I look busy, but I made sure that what I'm, I'm doing that I, I made sure I achieve my goals, what they have asked me to do as a researcher, but they let me free. But then not just them then, like my time, the dean for research Professor Ann Mary Head. Yes. Dr. Leslie. And then Dr. Scott Bley. Yes. From business school. Oh yes. 'cause I was teaching, I was teaching three subjects for business school for it that time. Right, right. So, because, you know, honestly like STEM Sisters was not my career progression plan.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 No, no, no, no. Like
Speaker 3 00:16:06 I, of course I've been an academic back home. Yes. And then more towards academia. I really wanted to become, be part of the industry. Yeah. So I laid a very strong foundation for that. Like, you know, I, like with data 61 CSRO, with the Department of Transport, I kind of got my career sorted. But this passion, like, you know, seeing people's women's life change and that like, you know, they're excellent. We are not doing too much. They're individually, they're exceptional. Yeah. But no one knows them. Yes. So no opportunity comes to them. Yes. Yes. So that, and they also don't know how to navigate this networking, how to be part of the community who understand the industry bodies. Yeah. Like there is a huge gap here. Yeah. Yeah. So fixing that, that's like, you know, it's, it's a big deal. But when we put that effort and do that work, the change the progress that you see from it, it was truly transformative. So because of that, I just pushed my career towards this.
Speaker 2 00:17:01 Yeah. It's, it's a fantastic thing because from artificial intelligence. Yes. As you were applying it in your PhD Yeah. With very strong IT and other industry support to now developing the ability to use and deploy it and recognize it by women of color or through women of color, that's a very important change to the person from the topic. Yeah. It's very interesting. Like you've published into it and now you're creating careers into it. Yeah. I think that's an amazing outcome. Yeah. Yeah. Really is. You know, when you think about it, a lot
Speaker 3 00:17:30 Of people think that STEM Sisters is my PhD project. I said, no, no. This is my kind of second PhD I did while doing my PhD.
Speaker 2 00:17:38 That's right. Well, as they say, as they say PhDs. Well, for example, let's just on for the record, your PhD research using ai. Actually the, the use case was addressing vehicle emissions by tackling road congestion issues. Like it was really interesting. Yeah. Just tell us a bit about that because not everyone knows that story.
Speaker 3 00:17:55 Yeah, I know it's kind of a ENT for the last three years because I was more focused on this. Yeah. But I've now made a decision very, very solidly to look into more critically on ai. Yeah. So I looked at how plans, special events, like, you know, big concerts, like, you know, sporting games effects, road congestion. Yeah. Because we have a lot of planning. There are some things that we cannot, like unpredictable weather and whatnot. It's really hard to kind of do the prediction model. But these are planned events. We have historical information very well gathered. So we need to really understand the patterns and see whether, how best that we can, because in planned events, we all come together at one time, then all try to leave. And how do we better manage our transportation? Yes. So that was my PhD work. So as I mentioned, we did a 61 CSRO and Department of Transport. That's what I read. But with that, like, you know, again, I was really fulfilling because it really contributed to not just in like a, like a research piece and just to be part of a, a journal, but more importantly practical impact and
Speaker 2 00:18:59 To see the impact. Yes, yes. You know, I think that's, that this very strong impetus for you always. And all the way through from the time of, you know, being their deputy prefict free effect and winning the science prize. See the impact. Yeah. Yeah. Visualize the impact. Yeah. Achieve the impact. Yeah. See, visualize, achieve. Yeah. It's very interesting. And look, the AI thing, yes. It's a bit of a debate. Yes. Because people say artificial intelligence is the best at pattern recognition of anything we've ever invented. However, some human beings are pretty good at pattern recognition too, including yourself. So what do you think? Does AI do pattern recognition better than humans or not?
Speaker 3 00:19:38 It can be be It's not better. What I would tell is if you leave it entirely for ai Yeah. You are creating a lot of problems. Yes. So, because like if you just, it's like if you just created like a black box, you give data in and consider outcome. Yep. It would try because we have, we don't, we have lot of like systematic barriers and lot of biases Yeah. In the current system. Yes. So technology is, is great, but if we don't like anything bad, what we have currently, it can enhance hundred times more. Yes. So therefore first we, we need to fix the gaps Yeah. Of our current inequalities or ethical, like any sort of issues that we have. Because we know like there are underrepresentation, there is bias, there is this and not. Yes. So we have to really approach the problem of fixing those.
Speaker 3 00:20:33 Yeah. Then we can really give it for the power for automation, PA track patent recognition. Yeah. I, I'll tell you an example, if you just automate something, that's what happened in recruitment. We are a leading company. They did that for recruitment because they've been hiring men for like, you know, they just disregard based on female names. Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, high school students, they were discriminated if they're coming from a certain suburbs. Mm. Right. Or even JU systems, they were like, you know, there are so many case studies, you know? Yep, yep. Because we are not like, you know, there are so many barriers, biases, you know, in properness in our society. Yep. So we, without with that information, we cannot train the model.
Speaker 2 00:21:18 Yes, yes, indeed. It's
Speaker 3 00:21:19 Not AI's fault.
Speaker 2 00:21:20 No, I get it. It's
Speaker 3 00:21:21 Not AI's fault. So we need to fix the gap. So for what I say for ai, personal productivity enhancement, you should use it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You can make it as your great assistant. Mm. The best assistant ever. Mm. Like everyone is now given an opportunity to have a great assistant. Yes. Write your emails, like, you know, of course you need to check because you, you monitor it. Like, you know, you don't send click just, you know, making automate. But you can do quite a lot. Yeah. Saves your time to spend on your, like, you know, maybe your health, your family or whatnot. Do your hobbies. Think about an entrepreneur journey, whatnot. Right. You can do so you save time. But for organizations, we are not ready for automation. Yeah. Or productivity enhancement. No. But we are ready for fixing the gaps. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:06 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:22:07 This is great. Like, you know, if I tell you an example in education, we were all supposed, like, you know, we didn't have other alternative, all students. Whether we are coming with all of these, you know, ident identities we're asked to run one race. There is a famous figure. Yes. Like, you know, where you have an elephant and a fish Yes. And a bird to run one race. How unfair is that? Yes. Yes. That's what the education system we had. Right Now you can customize education per the student because AI can you said can support it with that or in healthcare or in hiring everywhere. There are use cases where you can find the gaps or the equity issues. Yes. And use AI to fix those. Yes. Then you come up with a system or a data set where you have very equal representation of people, problems, all of that. Then we can automate. We are not ready for automate and we, we automation because we are going to scale. Yeah. The, the worst what is happening, yes. We are going to scale
Speaker 2 00:23:06 It. Yes. I get you. Yeah. It actually accentuates the biases. So what I, I'm just interpreting what you're saying. That the, the gaps in between isn't just something we jump over, we pay attention. Yes, yes. And those are almost more important than the lines, the gaps Yes. Are everything. Yes. Yeah. That's very, very insightful. And I think for everyone listening to something to think about, AI isn't the solution to every problem. In fact, it can be the creator of some Yes. You know? Yes. Which is very good. Now finally, just two questions before we finish. How are you finding the executive in residence role at vu? Are you finding it what you expected? Or any surprises?
Speaker 3 00:23:41 Honestly, VU have upgraded for, for the last two, three years. Yeah. A love, lovely surprise and fantastic. Yeah. It's great to be back to get to know the new team because I honestly missed my home in a way. Yeah. But I think the same enthusiasm with students and everything is like that VU culture. VU has a very unique culture to it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's been preserved and that's fantastic to see. But more importantly, as I said, I really felt home here. You know, I had greater support, great allies, great friends, great colleagues to great supervisors. Like, you know, my experience at VU was so great and coming back was fantastic because of it. And so that for, I'm just using the best, like of course, like everyone, I have quite a lot in my hands, but still I, like anyone, I've made an open call for any, any, you know, students or staff to get involved. So I'm working with multiple parties from alumni with student, few student groups. You're running a workshop on in like AI and responsible AI workshop Right. In the coming weeks. And then there are a few seminars, did some workshops for HDR with ice silk, so. Hmm. And I think there is a research showcase coming end of the year Yes. Hoping to be part of it. So, likewise, quite a lot of happening, but I'm, I'm loving it.
Speaker 2 00:25:02 It sounds like whatever it is, you just grab it with both hands, you know? Yeah. I mean it's, and, and all of your, your brain as well. Yeah. You know, which is good. Now, the final thing I was gonna ask you, which is what advice though, 'cause you, you didn't see a startup coming until it started up. No. It kind of just happened, right? Yes. With a great idea. But what advice would you now give to a student who was thinking of start creating or doing a startup enterprise? Anything you'd offer them? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:25:27 I really think the purpose and you like, you know, it needs to match your purpose. What do you, what you are really passionate about, because entrepreneurship journey has a lot of highs and low lows, and you need to stick with it. Right. You, you cannot, if it's just financial, like there are, like, I'm a very social enterprise kind of a person in my mind. Yes, of course finances is, is needed. I strongly believe it follows, but I'm not saying that mantra always work. Yeah. But you need to have, but I think you need to find that passion. Yeah. Even it's financial law, non-profit or whatever. Because there are high highs and low lows. Yes. So to stick with it, right. You need to have that gut and then you need to have great sounding boards. Yeah. And then cheerleaders. Yeah. Right. You need to have those people around you so they understand you, they support you. They'll be there for you so that they know like, that's okay, you're going a little low, but you know, you'll get through that kind of support. So it can be your family, friends, external. So that sort of surrounding is so important so that you still bypass. But it's such a rewarding thing. Like I never envisioned, I think I've been an always an entrepreneur in everything that I do. Yeah. But I didn't see that in me.
Speaker 3 00:26:40 Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, even when I, my previous work, like, you know, I, I brought new things. Like I was very innovative, but I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur. But this really, that change, the impact really taught me to kind of go through that pathway so you can figure it out. Like, you know, if I could do as an international student coming here without knowing, not knowing basically anyone, just to get started and now a couple of years down the line to kind of get to this stage. I'm sure it can be done by anyone. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, even though some of the topics that I'm working on challenging, you can still find great supporters for you to work with.
Speaker 2 00:27:17 So inspirational. Yes. I mean, look, it's fantastic if I sort of try and wrap it up from my point of view. We're so lucky that you chose to come. We're so lucky that you chose VU and we are now still so lucky that you've come back home. Thank you. That is the triple message because the journey continues. We cannot wait to see what you do next. And I'm sure you'll surprise yourself and us in a good way. So thank you so much for the, the discussion today. It's been fantastic.
Speaker 3 00:27:42 Thank you so much. It's, it's my pleasure.
